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New campground at Shelf Road

Kaleb Brown · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 20

Hello!

First off, thank you for the feedback! We like the discussion taken place, but we did think that it would be a little more positive. However, we were prepared for this and we are not discouraged. I will try and answer everything that I can.

So we have the numbers and information to back up our this business venture. We are tentative however to disclose this information because we think it is a great idea with an even bigger potential payoff in the future. We currently do not have the property so to protect ourselves from someone that might swoop in and snag it out from under us and do the same thing we are trying to do is the reason we have not published our entire business plan. And just to remind everyone donations made towards our project are simply that "donations" and in return you get our perk associated with it. This does not at all make you invested in our project in any way, other than a feeling of pride you might get from supporting a worthy cause. So we are not looking so much for investors at the moment as we are just looking for like minded people that care about change and want to show support and donate. If crowd-funding does not work, then we will go the standard business loan or investor approach to acquiring the funds.

As far as road access goes I have already touched on this earlier in the thread, but ideally we would like to use the cactus cliff road. We are well aware that this road will have to be upgraded to manage the amount of addition traffic up to our proposed campground site. We are already in preliminary discussion with the BLM on how to accomplish this. We are more than prepared to maintain upkeep and maintenance on the road because "Yes" we will be living up there. In order to keep costs low and keep everything affordable as possible we will be doing all maintenance and upkeep for the campground and road access.

Yes we know that this is a "weekend worrier" area. Based on the numbers from the BLM and research we have been doing the area is only getting bigger and more and more people will need a place to stay and camp. People also stay there for more than just the weekend, sometimes a week or two at a time. And if we can provide water and basic necessities that the other campground does not, then more people will be prone to stay longer periods of time. There is already a well on one of the parcels of property. We know that water will probably be an issue, we are already thinking of way to conserve our water usage and ways to recycle the water as well.

And as far as the video clip of mountain biking, that was what looked to be an overgrown old road access for cattle or something back in the day. It was only used to put into the video and we most definitely do not promote off trail biking. I can tell you this tho there are a lot of camp spots we have found down the road from the bank campground that are causing a lot more problems and will only increase in the future if nothing is done now to combat the issue. This might sound "counter intuitive" to develop a new campground to combat improper land use by overcrowded camping, but what do you think will happen 5 or 10 years from now if nothing is done? It will be nothing but a huge dust bowl and an area that once was an amazing place to bring family and friends to, will then be ruined for the future.

We truly have nothing but the best intentions and know what it will take to make this dream and goal a reality. We love the feedback we are getting and everything we are hearing is very useful in one way or another. We know that things are probably going to get even harder from here on out, but we are not going to give up. We know in our hearts that this is for the good of not only the area but could possibly make a huge impact on preservation for the future as well.

I hope this answers most of the questions that we received I think I tried to hit all of them. If I have missed something tho please feel free to ask again.

Thank you,

Kaleb
Co-founder "Shelf Life Campground"

Project video link:
indiegogo.com/projects/shel…

Facebook Page:
facebook.com/shelflife.co

Shelf Life logo - CO flag.

Ian Stewart · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2010 · Points: 155

For those that are curious, I'm pretty certain that the land they're looking at purchasing is this:

landsofcolorado.com/colorad…

Which is made up of these two parcels, where the first is the highlighted area on the map they provided earlier (there's a button on the page to "show parcel map"):
qpublic1.qpublic.net/cgi-bi…
qpublic1.qpublic.net/cgi-bi…

TKeagle · · Eagle, CO · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 79

Ian, thanks for clarifying the location for all to see.

Kaleb, sorry, but after reading the conversation and thread I think you are totally misguided in your efforts here, mainly because of geography and your take on what 'sustainability' is, not because of your grasp of the consumer market for more campgrounds and camp spots, bike trails, etc.

Had you put a parcel under contract down lower, say walking distance to sand gulch campground, then you would have support from me and others I know that have been climbing at shelf for over 20 years. But, please, I think its safe to say you can spare us all the talk of sustainability this and that ... bottom line - you have picked a location for a private, for profit campground that is terrible and should not be approved by local authorities under any condition.

Many years ago, I had a friend have a severe seizure at cactus cliff and it took an incredible effort and an inordinate amount of time to have local area EMT's get up the road to get him stable back at the hospital in Town.

After that incident, and before the bank campground was 'connected' by a trail and the road up closed except to the few property owners, the road was truly the biggest hazard of the whole experience. On a wet day, it is impassible and/or a disaster waiting to happen. Have you noticed the collapse of a good chunk of road in the straight away before the toilet lately? There is no cheap way or effective way to fix that.

You can talk to BLM all you want, but unless you are prepared to upgrade that road (or any approach road) and have it meet certain standards for turning radius, width, pavement, drainage, guardrail (basically an entirely paved different road), your proposal will die a very quick death as it should.

Unless a fund runs deep on your investors side, I'd estimate that you will spend over $750k on road improvements alone to properly engineer it for the COMMERCIAL ENTERPRISE that you are proposing. You guys need to do lots more homework before asking for funding and support.

I'd start with a basic pro-forma and involve a qualified civil engineer and it shouldn't cost you too much to get some order of magnitude on the road. I'm probably under estimating the cost if you don't apply for a handful of safety variances from local road authority, which any sane public official would not approve looking at your commercial oriented proposal.

I think you'd better start looking at other parcels for the same idea, or better yet, put the collected funds to work with the local RMFI folks and Access Fund to improve what we already have at the Bank and Sand Gulch.

I'm by no means an ecologist, but I believe sustainability should first recognize the natural carrying capacity of a landscape. On most weekends, we are there already without sacrificing the quality of experience at the crags. I don't see how adding more people to the equation makes Shelf a better place to be.

On the other hand, most weekdays, however, we are climbing or camping at either existing campground practically alone. Get it? The campground has fared pretty darn well for as many years as it has been there- thank you very much. Assholes are assholes no matter how you accommodate them with campgrounds. People cut trees, trash sites, etc. all over the State not just Shelf. No need to threaten us with the 'it was once paradise, now its a dustbowl.. if you just approved of my idea, I would have saved you'. Please.

How many campers will you need just to break even after you have the land and engineering costs figured out. Less cost a night than the bank ?? Seriously - feel free to post the estimated capital costs including road improvements, not your business plan for running a small private campground.

Finally, we've been camping with family and friends here for a very long time (before cactus was open). We leave it better than we find it, we pack in and out all our trash and then some, we bring all our weeks' worth of water and food with us so we are traveling back and forth and best of all- we park at the bank or sand gulch and spend all week walking from camp to climb, hike or bike the road system.

A commercial campground in the wrong place to somehow prove this place we all love can be "sustainable" just doesn't add up as you have it proposed in this location.

I'm not trying to be a prick here, just not dancing around like others being polite as you posted and asked for input and well.. here it is. I will be more than happy to share these thoughts with the BLM, Access Fund, RMFI and any County authority as the process allows.
Thanks again for soliciting input through the forum and I hope you take this idea to a more suitable area down near sand gulch, where you will still have many of the same issues to contend with but at least a better start on many of the access issues.

slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103

agree w/ captain chaos pretty much 110%.

i definitely am psyched to see that you guys are willing to put in a lot of time and effort to do a really good thing. additional camping at shelf would be great, particularly as there is growing demand from the mountain biking community and other users as well.

like chaos said, i think the key is procuring land below - ie around the general sand gulch camp ground. there is a fair amount of flat ground for group sites to the northeast, there is potential for semi-private sights to the southwest, etc. the main road is already paved up to that point. it just has a lot more going for it.

if you build on the cactus cliff mesa there are a lot of hurdles. obviously the road up to cactus. this will not be cheap. the grade will require paving. there are erosion problems on the upslope and downslope side of the road. it is basically single lane, which isn't conducive to a bunch of people coming in and out of a campground.

on top of that, fremont county will probably require paving of shelf road up to the turnoff as a betterment before they agree to anything. for a long time they have put a lot of effort into getting cripple creek traffic to take the high park road instead of shelf, as maintaining shelf is a lot of work and a lot of money. again, that stretch of shelf road is basically single lane, and is not a good road during adverse weather.

again, i admire that you guys are trying to do but i think it is headed in the wrong direction. i think you are greatly, greatly, greatly underestimating the cost. you are willing to ask for donations, but not willing to attempt to procure financing through a loan or other means - which to me indicates a lack of commitment. if you want people to take you seriously, you have to put some skin in the game (usually a lot of skin). you will not be able to come up with donations that scratch the surface of the costs. i feel bad telling you this, but probably better me than someone else. without a solid game plan, technical feasibility, and a reasonable financial forecast, i don't see it happening.

Greg Kimble · · Colorado · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 0
Kaleb Brown wrote:If crowd-funding does not work, then we will go the standard business loan or investor approach to acquiring the funds.
Slim, It seems like they are prepared to get loans. It is a little unfair to judge their commitment.

They have not disclosed what their initial capital looks like so we don't know how much they think they need to accomplish this. It's hard to say they are underestimating the overall costs when, as far as I have seen, they have not disclosed their estimates for an overall cost. Granted, those costs will be high but in 6 days they raised almost $30k. Even if it costs 1 million to get it together than that's 3% in 6 days. Again, we don't know the initial capital they are working with.

I've thought something needed to be done for years and haven't don't shit about it so you guys are doing more than me. Video looks good. Glad to see you guys are psyched. Try to keep up your intensity for the next 50 days.
slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103

good point about the loans - i misread his post last night. i still think they are underestimating the cost, and i base this on the statement that "If crowd-funding does not work, then we will go the standard business loan or investor approach to acquiring the funds". this to me implies that they have hopes that crowd funding will cover it, which seems unrealistic.

Ian Stewart · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2010 · Points: 155
Greg Kimble wrote:Granted, those costs will be high but in 6 days they raised almost $30k.
You glanced over the number too quick...they've raised almost $3k ($2,905 as of right now), not $30k. Their goal is listed at $250k.

I agree with everything Captain Chaos said...I was just too lazy to say it myself.
slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103

quick back of the envelope calc, a $250K long term small business loan (assuming 25 year term, 7.5% interest) would be a monthly payment of about $1850. would the campground pull in the money to, not only cover the loan, but also provide living costs for 2 people?

also, 250K isn't a reasonable estimate of the cost.

Eric and Lucie · · Boulder, CO · Joined Oct 2004 · Points: 140

SUSTAINABLE + DEVELOPMENT = OXYMORON.
No amount of bullshit green-washing will change that.

Greg Kimble · · Colorado · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 0

Haha stupid decimals. I also get lost in libraries. My bad.

Eric or lucie, what is currently in place is not sustainable.

mike h · · Front Range, CO · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 24

More camping is definitely needed at Shelf, I'm totally on board with that, as well as a focus on minimizing environmental impact.

But I do have a few.... points of constructive criticism:

Sustainability is awesome, but I'm not sure I agree with your interpretation of it. For starters, adding solar panels AND wind turbines to your facility seems far less sustainable than the electricity-free camgrounds at the Bank and Sand Gulch. Occasionally an RV will run their generator at night, but I think you will be too if your facilities require electricity (there's a lot of dark, windless hours up there!). It's critical to note that your renewable energy sources will exist to support amenities that the other 2 campgrounds manage just fine without, and you'll still need some backup power source for when the wind and sun aren't doing the job.

Not much to add to the many "road" comments except a +1. Again, even if you manage the finances/logistics of that, is it truly sustainable and in the best interest of Shelf Road as a whole?

I'm a bit put off by the fundraising campaign too. If this will become a for-profit business that will potentially provide you two a residence and income, what's my incentive to "donate"? If $50 got me 4-5 free nights, that might entice me, but a "sticker and a shoutout"?!? For that same cost, I could stay 4 nights at the Bank and donate $22 to the Access Fund (they'd probably give me 2 stickers and, say, open Cactus Cliff 15 years ago). Remember that we also don't have money to start our dream businesses - you could attract more investors by making it seem like that, an investment with a real return, not a donation.

Good luck with all of it, probably see you at Shelf!

Eric and Lucie · · Boulder, CO · Joined Oct 2004 · Points: 140
Greg Kimble wrote:Eric or lucie, what is currently in place is not sustainable.
Greg: In a sense, I agree with you: the place is overcrowded. What I don't understand is why you think that adding more facilities, hence attracting more people, will help with this situation. Constantly adding new development to satisfy growing demand is not sustainable.
Ian Stewart · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2010 · Points: 155
Eric and Lucie wrote:What I don't understand is why you think that adding more facilities, hence attracting more people, will help with this situation. Constantly adding new development to satisfy growing demand is not sustainable.
+1

The only way you could make Shelf "sustainable" is if new cliffs magically appeared at the same rate as the increasing climber population.

Alternatively, you could LIMIT the number of people that access it. There's a good reason why many of the most popular outdoor destinations in the world are limited using permit systems...
Greg Kimble · · Colorado · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 0

Or we could chop the bolts on anything below 5.9. That'll keep a lot of people away. I also agree with Mike, money is probably better spent with the Access Fund.

But we are talking about a low impact commercial campground, not a Walmart. Right now you have people shitting in the woods and sleeping wherever they want because there aren't enough places to camp. Anything's gotta be better than that.

Does anybody know of any similar camp grounds and their results? I wonder if a low impact commercial camp ground has been done anywhere with any success.

TKeagle · · Eagle, CO · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 79

Nothing sustainable about this kind of thought process, and I quote:

"But we are talking about a low impact commercial campground, not a Walmart. Right now you have people shitting in the woods and sleeping wherever they want because there aren't enough places to camp. Anything's gotta be better than that. "

That is not very critical thinking and the intelligent folks here know that this is about far from low impact as you can get considering the spatial context of where it is proposed. Greg, your comparison to a walmart development is a total fail.

No one is going to die without another campground, and I don't know how a few stupid people shitting in the woods compels me to to anything other than fundraise for BLM and RMFI to install another vault toilet at the bank parking lot if its such a problem, which I don't think it is- ever climb in spain or france?

Adding more camping and more people will truly make shelf UNSUSTAINABLE, but these guys seem to want to press on no matter what anyone says (i.e. thanks for your opinion and unless you support our project, we don't care). They were on the radio today gathering support with their sustainability whitewash talk.

In reality, the land they are interested is not zoned or approved for this type of commercial use, and isn't designated by the adopted master plan for this area, so the developers need to ask permission from a few agencies including the County.Speak up people, submit your comments and valid concerns about road safety, traffic and other issues to Fremont County.

Send letters and or emails with your concerns regarding "SHELF LIFE CAMPGROUND PROPOSAL" to:

Bill Giordano
Planning Director
Fremont County Planning & Zoning Department
615 Macon Ave, Room 210
Canon City, CO 81212

email to: planning@fremontco.com
and the County Engineer: don.moore@fremontco.com

call Fremont Planning with questions at: 719.276.7360

And the BLM office:

Royal Gorge Field Office
3028 East Main Street
Canon City, CO 81212

email: dadamic@blm.gov (Denise Adamic, Public Affairs Officer)
email: kberger@blm.gov (Keith Berger, Office Manager)

Thanks !

Kyle Rodman · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2013 · Points: 0

I can see both sides to this, its tricky because I know the BLM has had to deal with many illegal campsites on the road up to the bank, and poorly set up primitive sites in the area. Giving those extra folks a different place that is more properly maintained could be a great thing. That being said, I'd hate to see the result of that being even more use on the fragile area that is shelf road. I'm not completely sold on another campground increasing use substantially though.

In regards to the comment about Mark Hesse and RMFI's involvement, he is a phenomenal resource for trail layout, construction and many other issues in the area. He recently retired from the organization however, Rebecca Jewett and Joe Lavorini are the contacts you would want to make if talking to RMFI. Chances are they wouldn't really want to be too involved (except in an advisory role) if the project was on private land. All of their work takes place on public lands.

PMO · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2013 · Points: 0

Thank you "captchaos" for all of the relevant information and thoughtful comments.

If the goal is to teach people how to "decrease their carbon footprint" and to live a "sustainable" life, you do NOT build a COMMERCIAL RECREATIONAL campground where more cars, more trailers and more traffic will destroy this beautiful, pristine ground.

Find yourself an area off the grid and set up your own little commune. You can use all of the warm fuzzy "green" words you want, but this looks like a couple of guys that want someone else to pay for their desire to own property near the cliffs.

As one of my friends said, look to the Amish...aren't they a living example of how to live with a minimum "footprint"?

PMO · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2013 · Points: 0

I would like to thank "captchaos" for this information. I would warn anyone interested in contributing to this project: these two DO NOT OWN nor do they have any PURCHASE AGREEMENT with the owner of the two targeted properties in Cliffside Heights.

PS: WARNING: You appear to have been trespassing on OUR property when you were videotaping your "promo" and you DID NOT have our permission to be on our lot. No trespassing signs are posted for the entire private area known as Cliffside Heights.

Nor, apparently, did you have permission from any other property owner(s) PARTICULARLY the current owners of the two lots you are raising money to ruin with your little enterprise.

The CURRENT owner of those two lots claims there is no plan, contract or proposal in place for the sale of these lots and has no plans to sell them to anyone "incompatible" with the current owners and the area.

slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103

the first question that i have heard from a handful of people - "if this doesn't go through, what happens to the money? will we get our donation back, or will the guys keep it?". i think this is a relevant question.

Ian Stewart · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2010 · Points: 155
slim wrote:the first question that i have heard from a handful of people - "if this doesn't go through, what happens to the money? will we get our donation back, or will the guys keep it?". i think this is a relevant question.
(The following information was gathered from the indiegogo terms: indiegogo.com/how-pricing-w… )

Since this particular project is considered a "Flexible Funding Campaign", this means that they get to keep your money REGARDLESS of whether or not they meet their $250k goal. The only importance of their goal is that it determines how much of a fee indiegogo takes: if they meet the goal, they take 4%; if they don't meet their goal, they take 9%. There's a 3% credit card processing fee regardless of the outcome, too.

Yes...this means that if they don't meet their goal, they still get to keep 88% of the funds while indiegogo pockets 12%.

You'd think that if they had ANY money sense, they'd try to avoid these fees as much as they can. Yet the largest contribution so far has been $1000 from Paul DeWeese...obviously related to the co-founder Hudson DeWeese. So instead of just asking his family to write a fee-free check for $1000, he thought it would be better to go through a third party that shaves off $120 the top...
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Colorado
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