Rumney new routing issue discussion.

This post was originally a comment in Bonnie and Clyde

i'll agree the start was tricky. i'm not sure if it was because i actually had the wrong "beta" or the route was "less than clean..."

i don't mean to provoke, and i'm hoping people won't get too defensive, but...

when we "bolt a sport route," we are in effect, "murdering the impossible..."

the anti-bolt trad purists are correct, we are "permanently defacing the rock..." and we are "bringing the climb down to our level..."

personally, i think if we accept that fact, and drill the bolts, we are required to produce the best possible route we can.

if we are going to "murder the impossible," we should at least leave a "beautiful corpse..."

"bonnie and clyde" may be dead, but they ain't beautiful...

when i clipped the anchors, i was stranding in a forest of lichen. not exactly "beautiful."

I realize the fa'er may have spent a whole "half day" cleaning the route; but, it really deserves more...

again, i don't mean to be disrespectful. but, when you bolt a sport route, you have forever altered the climbing experience. that makes it the fa'ers responsibility to make it the best experience they can.

respectfully,

ed e

This post was originally a comment in Bonnie and Clyde

Ed, Lee - Do you think some of these comments should be moved into a NE forum discussion? I think it points to an important discussion that needs to be made and maybe more Rumney developers will see it there.

Most of the really classic and obvious lines at Rumney have now been climbed, yet almost every square inch is fun in some way to climb/scramble on. We are at a point in Rumney's history were real thought and some restraint will need to be added to the zeal for new routing or things could quickly get really ugly. Non of us like to be told not to do something by some sort of authority, so it would be much better if we can come to a freely directed impetus of our own. I fully am in agreement with you Ed. It is a tough thing to have to tell a fellow climber that their creations are badly done and should be changed or removed, especially if they are friends who are obstinate. One should never ever bolt a route himself again IMO, but pick a line, clean it and have somebody else drill the holes for him. Almost every one of his routes has F'ed up bolt placements and usually twice as many as should be there.

Maybe it is time for us Rumney developers to make a special effort to ask around (more than just our couple usual buddies) if a perspective line we are all excited about will really be an improvement for the area and be willing to listen to some critiquing. Will another 1 or no star route be a good addition, or crowd out the lines that are already there? Might it be better to put the effort into cleaning up an old route and replacing bad hardware and anchors, or go find some other areas for new routing (like Sundown or Woodchuck for example)?

I was talking to Lee last night about the new "Crag" that went in recently next to upper vadar.. called "hail vadar" that seems like an unnecessary amount of cleaning for little gain. I agree with Lee that "at least it wasn't bolted" but I don't think every piece of rock needs to be scraped clean and named. I find Bradley's database bombing of craglets that are brush covered hikes vs actual rock climbing to be pretty annoying and only clutter the site. (but at least he leaves them natural/uncleaned)

Been at this for 35 years so I will throw in my two cents. I believe there is a balance between when the route setter should stop cleaning. I have done my share of lichen brushing and I am sure it is nothing compared to what you do in the east.

I am not a fan of people who think the guy doing all the work needs to maintain the trails, hardware, and buff a climb until it shines. If the community thinks the climb is worth doing then traffic will keep it clean. On the other hand maybe the community should put a little more effort into helping with cleaning new routes other than just climbing them. This might lead to the climbs being more worthwhile.

I think if the bolts are badly placed you should talk to the developer and see if they will fix it. Most developers want to do a good job so that they and others will enjoy repeating the climb. If not, the community can move them when the developer dies.

As far as what should or should not be set up as a climb it isn't up to any one person or small group to decide. If it is not going to cause access issues leave them alone or protest by not climbing them.

I just bolted a route I top-roped 25 years ago. Years ago I was looking for longer things as was more of the standard. It is 35 feet long and I thought it was too short. It is still too short but it is now a fun short lead. Newer climbers often learn at gyms where a route may only be 35 feet long so they are not bothered by short at all. I stop at colored tape however.

M Sprague wrote:Maybe it is time for us Rumney developers to make a special effort to ask around (more than just our couple usual buddies) if a perspective line we are all excited about will really be an improvement for the area and be willing to listen to some critiquing. Will another 1 or no star route be a good addition, or crowd out the lines that are already there? Might it be better to put the effort into cleaning up an old route and replacing bad hardware and anchors, or go find some other areas for new routing (like Sundown or Woodchuck for example)?

I'm not a rumney developer and have only bolted one sport climb in my life but I 100% agree. It seems to me that there plenty of routes at rumney that are bolted that wouldn't be bolted at any other cliff. I know some of this is meant to help with crowding but these are not climbs I see people on. Adding new quality lines is okay if you can find them but are more moss prone 1 star routes needed? Rumney is probably 4-5th on my list of places to sport climb in NE and part of this is the overbolting, when the quality of orange crush and wamiea should make 1-2 on that list.

Finally, if developers are going to go to other cliffs looking for FAs, I ask that you don't use your Rumney eyes. Just because you bolt something at Rumney doesn't mean people will climb it at other cliffs. If your going to put the time and money into something as well as make permanent changes to the rock please only bolt quality routes. No 3 bolt choss climbs.

Jake D. wrote:(but at least he leaves them natural/uncleaned)

Also, Bradley lists them as single star or bombs. MP doesn't have a non-star system... so single star is basically that. I'd be surprised to find any of the Hail Vader climbs worth a star.