Project-ing Trad lines

Wilson On The Drums wrote:I think anyone can respectably project a trad line at any grade as long as it is pushes them to become a better climber either mentally or physically.

To be serious, I think the question should be answered like this: If you want to find out how hard you can climb traditionally protected routes, ground up, you should project something that you think you can send after getting the moves wired.

HOWEVER...

There's a good chance if you stuck to onsighting/two-three trying what you can, and continued improving (especially with good training), there's not a bad chance that in a year or so, you'd be onsighting what you'd originally planned on projecting.

SO, I see it as this: Unless you've exhausted your physical potential, climbing more of what you can do in only a few tries will bring you to a higher onsight level. If you're physically at your potential (forever) limit, then you could sit down and project a line for a year and get the hardest send of your life. It's up to you what you do, f*** what other people say. (Especially on the internet, ESPECIALLY on MP)

Will S vs Will S. vs Will S..

pillow fight turned Ménage à trois.. and my stem is still rigid. ( i knew owning forged friends would eventually pay off)

Whatchoo talkin' 'bout Will S.?
youtube.com/watch?v=Qw9oX-k…

Will S. wrote:Will S vs Will S. vs Will S.. pillow fight turned Ménage à trois..

Don't you mean "Ménage à trolls"

My first "project" was a 5.9 (r4 on Mt Lemmon) in '92. I freaked the first time I tried to lead it and backed off. One of my more talented buddies climbed it, and set a TR. I attempted to climb it, thought about pro and basically did everything in my power other than chip and drill to get myself up the route. It took a few days and a few more aborted attempts followed by rehearsals on TR, but it was a great learning experience. I felt very respectable when I finally did the route clean, and no one whose opinion mattered to me ever said they didn't respect me for "projecting" my way to the top.

The more I think about the OPs question, the more I am struck by how strange it is. Then again, maybe I am just out of touch and hopelessly uncool. The number is 5.9. Carry on!

I tend to project the first pitch of any multipitch line...and i don't let anyone pass. As far as grades go, I tend stay around 5.1b

Hey man, I project tons of trad lines. Project whatever grade you need, try hard, commit, and enjoy.

Will S. wrote:I love how precise you need to be on forums... I have been climbing for 15 years .. mostly trad .. i have never seen anyone onsight 5.12.. i assume i need to clarify here.. 5.12 trad.

well,.... you do live in Michigan. If you climb in areas with a greater density of good climbers, you will start seeing more people onsighting in the 12 range on gear. sometimes if i feel like i am in the minority where i live because i don't onsight in the mid 12 range on gear.

and like the real Will S said, as long as you aren't making a cluster for other folks, feel free to project at whatever grade you want. i actually recommend it - if you don't send, try it again until you do.

See Slim's comment.... If you want to see people onsite .12, travel.... Myself, I'm 48 and will onsite some.12's and will flail on some .11's onsite. Its all good since its all a learning experience

As for what YOU are climbing and what you wanna project whatever, go for it. Get out there, push yourself in a responsible manner, learn from your failure, rejoice in your successes and do it for yourself. In the long run, everyone will care more about the latest baseball scores more than what you learned today, and thats cool.

Dont remeber who said this but. "I've seen 5.11 divided into 11 different grades of increasing difficulty, as follows: 5.11a, 5.10d, 5.11-, 5.11b, 5.11, 5.11c, 5.9 squeeze, 5.11+, 5.10 OW, 5.12a, 5.11d."

No one i know climbs in michigan ... grand ledge is a joke. Most summer weekends are trips to red river gorge, seneca, ontario. Winter i usually hit red rocks. Ive also been to Jtree.. Indian Creek.

Will S. wrote:I love how precise you need to be on forums... I have been climbing for 15 years .. mostly trad .. i have never seen anyone onsight 5.12.. i assume i need to clarify here.. 5.12 trad. when i post a question im not asking to the elite group of climber that you all think you are a part of. I doubt any of you climbed with or were friends with dean potter, sonny trotter, caldwell, ondra, sharma, honnold, jardine.. also .. the original question was at what level do you start project-ing? if we could have just answered with ratings, instead of dickhead responses, this would have been a lot easier for all of us.

Sorry man, but you are just wrong. Spend any time traveling around the US and you'll meet plenty of people who can onsight mid 5.12 trad. Spend any time in Europe and you'll meet people who don't even trad climb that often but when they do, they can onsight mid 5.12 trad. Come to think of it, I've belayed more than one person on a 5.12 trad onsight, and even come close myself (and I am a very average climber).

Anyways, not here to stir the pot. There are no rules and getting tied down to them (and also spending too much time on MP arguing about them) can only hurt your climbing. Like NCRob83 said, "Project whatever grade you need, try hard, commit, and enjoy."

PS, Rob, have you onsighted 5.12 trad? Probably soon if not already.

As someone who moved out west from MI, I can tell ya that people crank a lot harder than you describe. Move out of MI, and see the light.

Pseudo serious answer: If it is one pitch it is cragging. Project which ever line you want to it is all practice to get better. Everyone plays their own game with their own rules, so don't sweat it. Your rules will reflect what you want to do in climbing. The stupid standard I hold myself to is that you only get one chance to onsight. Being capable of confronting the challenges when you get on the climb is critical to onsighting. Naturally this only really matters on bigger remote climbs where protection, daylight, and the difficulty of bailing are factors in the equation for success. Through that lens if it is one pitch off the ground bolted or not it is just practice for the time when it matters. Working to progress is respectable at any grade.

We're not being facetious about the mid .12 onsighting thing. Just something you haven't seen yet.

ok .. you all win the 5.12 onsight debate .. although i love to argue .. i have no choice to believe you. I will be anxiously waiting to see it happen.. hopefully some routes in RRG that i have looked and shook my head.

so after all that has been said .. this is what i gather.

always try to onsight if you fail then work it out.. but never project from the start. understandable.. and for the most part its probably how it would go down... or not give a shit and do whatever i want.. meh.. we'll see i do like a little r.e.s.p.e.c.t.

this perhaps should be another post but .. im looking at this A1 crack in KY.. should i try to.. wait... IF i attempt to try this at the end of the season... assuming im in shape and not injured... should i work it out on lead or TR it and figure it out? i assume the same rules apply .. go for the onsight .. or whatever that would be called .. onsight FA ?? right .. that will happen.. lol

thanks for all your comments and banter .. it was a lot of fun!!

Will S. wrote:so after all that has been said .. this is what i gather. always try to onsight if you fail then work it out.. but never project from the start...

That is absolutely NOT the way. What is the point in trying to on-sight something that is way over your head? All your going to do is waste energy for the rest of the day. The line between a smart onsight attempt and a foolish one is blurry, but it's there. Bottom line is, if you try to onsight something that is way to hard for you then you've just decreased your chances of sending it that day, or even the next day. It boils down to what is more important to you: Maybe getting the lucky but still badass onsight every blue moon, or continuously projecting, sending, and getting stronger.

Will S. wrote:or not give a shit and do whatever i want...

That's better. Just go have fun, what other people think is seriously the least important part of climbing. By even considering what others think is only putting a limit on your success.

Will S. wrote:im looking at this A1 crack in KY.. should i try to.. wait... IF i attempt to try this at the end of the season... assuming im in shape and not injured... should i work it out on lead or TR it and figure it out? i assume the same rules apply .. go for the onsight .. or whatever that would be called .. onsight FA ?? right .. that will happen.. lol thanks for all your comments and banter .. it was a lot of fun!!

I'm confused. Is this an aid crack that you want to free? Is it at a well known area? Does it look mega hard? Sounds like a project to me. Get up there and check it out!

This may seem silly, but the sequel to The Self Coached Climber is called Redpoint, and it has all sorts of projecting tips. It's more about sport climbing, but once you start projecting gear routes it's pretty much all the same.

it's an aid crack.. not so popular .. bottom half looks doable .. top half looks thin..it's only 50' or so .. i would love to free it but someone is working it and will probably beat me to it. i think i will make it my summer project.

anyone have a 50' stick clip i can borrow ??

thanks Ryan

If its an aid climb, aid it and check it out. If you cant aid what makes you think you"d get enough good gear to lead it?

I've seen a guy place gear with a stick clip -all the way up- before.