Re: adding wraps to a toprope in the gym for heavy climbers/light belayers

Jake D. wrote:Also there are other things you can do to increase friction like double up your belay biner or use a leg loop redirect to help with lowering. but gym rat noobs don't learn these things because they aren't taught in the 45 second "belay lesson" BS

The friction being discussed was that at the anchor, not at the belayer. Adding friction to the anchor reduces the upward pull on the belayer since it takes a lot of the force out of the fall. Adding friction to your belay only helps if the rope is slipping through your belay device, which isn't the case here.

I think the original solution of wrapping the rope around the belay rope is reasonable, though obviously this doesn't work for belaying a leader.

For top roping, you want to have something simple, and I doubt that the wear on the rope is a concern. We use rope friction all the time in climbing. As other people in the gym do this already and there are no weights to tie into, I'd do it myself.

Anyway, as more of a technical question, how much different is the effect on the rope as to what the rope is rubbing against? If it instead gets the same amount of frictional force by rubbing against the metal at the top, then how much of the metal gets worn as opposed to the rope? Might it not be nearly the same amount of rope wear if the amount of friction is the same? (Given that the metal hardly wears.)

Kiri Namtvedt wrote: He's probably 60 lbs heavier than me, at least. I was belaying him on a slightly overhanging toprope. I wasn't keeping the rope ultra-tight, but was keeping up with him. About 30 feet up he went for a dynamic move (thus adding additional slack all of a sudden) and then fell. I shot upwards, which I expected. What I didn't expect was to KEEP shooting upwards with no reduction in speed! I flew up and he flew down and we didn't stop until he crashed into my head. It was weird and scary, and although I seem to have come through it with nothing more than some stiff/sore neck and shoulder muscles, it weirded me out. For the record, I've caught this guy on some huge sport climbing whippers outdoors, on which I flew up to the first bolt; I thought I knew what I was in for. Is there a concensus on rope-wrapping? Part of why my friend and I have never done it is because of how hard it would be on the rope.

Although your climber didn't dyno the distance it would be from one clip to another (like a lead fall could be) probably part of it was his weight coming down that made him "heavier" and made you lift up.

I've never heard of rope wrapping, but after your description of it, i agree with your assessment to avoid it, due to how hard it would be on the ropes. Floor anchors are the way to go for toprope. Other than that, just keep the toprope tight to avoid this situation - because you weigh less than him, it's not like you will pull him up the route. My friends indicate they get pulled up off the ground when belaying someone 40lbs heavier on toprope, but the only time I shifted even slightly while belaying a toprope climber was with someone who weighs 150 lbs more than me (he weighed over double my weight).

As for lead climbing, my gym recommends to only lead climb w/ people who are 50% above the light climber's weight. i.e. 100lb belayer, 150lb climber, but they have no recommendations for top rope. I admire those guys who climb with people who weigh much less than them. Personally, I don't like lead climbing with a person who weighs less than me (toprope is fine) unless they are using a gri-gri. My usual climbing partner outweighs me by 90lbs. Usually I clip this 30lb "bag of rocks" floor anchor to me (I bought one too) to belay him on lead, and try not to feed too much slack out (to lessen the distance of fall, which would make him heavier). This makes belaying kind of belabored because I use a gri-gri to belay on lead and have to feed the rope out quickly when they are clipping.

My similar situation is when I had my climber take a practice lead fall after clipping the 2nd clip, when he was halfway to the 3rd clip. Because there wasn't much friction in the system, even w/ the rock bag anchor I got pulled to the 1st clip and we switched places - he ended up lower than me. It freaked him out too. He said he could feel the free fall, then he could feel my weight come on the rope and fell, but slightly slower.

Jake D. wrote: Then the gym is passing people who shouldn't pass for the sake of $$ then covering their asses to allow it to continue. Floor staff should also be watching for poor belaying, that is what they are there for. People should be made VERY clear that they are holding their friends life in their hands and that job should be taken seriously. If they cannot take it seriously then point them to the bouldering cave. It is not right to ingrain bad habits for the sake of business. Also there are other things you can do to increase friction like double up your belay biner or use a leg loop redirect to help with lowering. but gym rat noobs don't learn these things because they aren't taught in the 45 second "belay lesson" BS

Trust me, many (granted, not all) of the floor staff at the gym in question does their best to watch everyone. In addition, the risks of climbing/belaying are well articulated to all guests and members, at least the ones that bother to read their waivers and the litany of signs posted throughout the gym.

As callous and heartless as it may sound, the gym's utmost priority as a business is to... well, do business. It is a gym, not an institution responsible for churning out smart, savvy, and technically sound outdoor climbers. If the gym can ensure that what goes on inside is safe enough, then that's about all that is in their interests business-wise. The customer is the gym's responsibility when, and only when, they are in the facility. You can debate the ethics of this standard all you like, but it isn't going to change. Good luck to the gym that only allows experienced or veteran climbers to use its facilities.

As an aside, adding extra friction through the use of double biners or additional leverage points on the legloops does nothing to compensate for the phenomenon the OP was referring to. 'Gym rat noobs' and experienced belayers alike are subject to the same laws of physics, and a light belayer will go for a ride if their climber is heavy enough. Double wraps around belay barsand the use of belay anchors prevent this, not added friction on the belay device.

BrianWS wrote: 'Gym rat noobs' and experienced belayers alike are subject to the same laws of physics...

Ha Ha, gravity sucks...and so does this thread.

For three years, I managed the rock wall at a YMCA where the rope was not doubled over the belay bars, and just recently switched jobs to a college where I'm finding the same practice. I have never been to a commercial gym with belay bars where the rope was not doubled over. I have climbed a fair bit on both of these setups, and a bit on opposite and opposed double locking carabiners and chains used at indoor facilities. I have also worked on ropes courses that use a variety of methods for belaying and techniques to increase friction not commonly seen in the rock climbing world.

In terms of top roping, the single pass over the belay bar has by far the LEAST amount of friction of any setup I have seen in practice at an indoor gym. The rope is actually slippery because it passes over a smooth surface with no sharp pinches, and any weight differential between climber and belayer can be difficult to manage for the inexperienced belayer. The reason we used this setup at the YMCA where I worked was because we had many young children climbing the wall, and the increased friction from doubling the rope over was so great that sometimes small kids would get stuck on the wall and a rescue was needed to safely lower the child down.

Doubled over ropes with one pass around a belay bar have significantly more friction that these other setups. At commercial indoor climbing gyms, they make it easy for a belayer to safely belay a climber that is much heavier, and also prevent the rope from being pulled and falling. These systems are less sensitive and the ropes can wear the slightly faster, but overall the safety benefits are tremendous over a non-wrapped system.

Opposite and opposed carabiners, even though they only have one pass of the rope, create a sharper turn and therefore are less smooth/slippery than belay bars with only one pass. But they are hard on the rope and the carabiners wear faster and need to be replaced more often than belay bars do.

I have NEVER seen anyone intentionally wrap the climber and belayer's rope, but I have seen this occur accidentally. I would never encourage this dangerous behavior. The amount of friction generated by a rope rubbing on itself under tension is tremendous and because the surface area of this contact is so small I have actually seen a rope saw through its own sheath after half a dozen passes while on a ropes course.

I recently taught my boyfriend to belay at the Y (he outweighs me by at least 50 lbs, if not more) and we went to a commercial gym after Thanksgiving so we could climb a greater diversity of routes. At the Y, he could easily lift me a bit off the ground if he took a fall but at the gym he could fall with some slack in the system when going for a far hold and I didn't move one bit.

Floor anchors can be helpful, but I think portable anchors (ballast bags) are a safer option to permanent floor anchors. Permanent anchors are often used incorrectly (most people also have too much slack in the tether they use) and prevent the belayer from being mobile, which is valuable when giving beta to a climber, getting out of the way of something/someone, or backing up to take out slack if a climber is moving quickly. Portable floor anchors (ballast bags) have the advantage of adding weight to the belayer without being fixed, and therefore prevent shocking the belayer in the event of a fall. I'm looking into getting ballast bags for my college program.

You need a better option than wrapping the rope around itself (this is NOT safe). I'd ask the gym about getting a couple ballast bags. The bags themselves are not too expensive, and you can fill them with sand or another inexpensive fill. It will make the climbing experience much safer for everyone involved.

Kari Post wrote:The amount of friction generated by a rope rubbing on itself under tension is tremendous and because the surface area of this contact is so small I have actually seen a rope saw through its own sheath after half a dozen passes while on a ropes course.

Here are my observations - in the gyms that use 2 biners/quicklinks for TR anchor I can handle ~50% weight difference without catching air - my weight is ~145lb, belaying climbing partners over 210lb guarantees flying when the belay is not overly tight. Having a twist around climbers/belayers ropes at the anchor will cut force transmitted to belayer tremendously. Actually, when my wife is TR belaying me on something that I anticipate falling and hanging for extended time, I typically introduce twist in the system to make her task a bit easier - our gym does not allow assisted lock devices, e.g. GriGri.

Amount of friction when rope runs over itself is, indeed, quite big. The rope will, most definitely, not saw through the sheaf since the contact patch is always shifting over both strands. You might have difficult time believing this statement, but I will refer to people belaying with Munter hitch - similar rope over rope friction is encountered there.

Adding a rope wrap or two is pretty standard and has no harmful effect on the rope (well the typical gym rope anyway).

I'm the original poster, and I need to update with the news that this happened to me again!

Once again I was belaying a much heavier climber. He was near the top of a 5.9 toprope and made a dynamic move to a hold which spun, so he fell without warning. I had him on a reasonably tight belay, but his sudden movement up and then sudden fall down resulted in some slack that caused him to jerk me upwards. I flew at least fifteen feet into the air.

I have been in the habit of doing the rope twist with this particular friend (although we didn't have a twist in the rope at this time); when belaying him I walk around his strand so that the two ends of the rope twist up near the anchor. I realize that many have commented in this thread that this is a bad idea, but it actually is common practice at the local gyms (Minneapolis/St Paul) and I can vouch for the fact that it's very helpful when belaying a much heavier partner. I agree that floor anchors would be a better solution but these gyms don't push the use of floor anchors.

One more fact: the local gyms don't use a pipe type anchor system; all anchors are paired and opposed biners.

If the rope runs up through a frictionless pulley, then if there was any weight differential or if any slack in the rope allowed for a mini leader fall, the belayer would be pulled up until either they hit the top point or the belayed climber hit the ground.

In other words, the only thing that keeps an outweighed unanchored belayer on the ground is friction at the top point. If there isn't enough friction for the situation at hand, then the belayer will be pulled up---and this has nothing to do with belaying skill and can't be mitigated by any belayer action (other than anchoring). In real life, the belayer typically won't go all the way to the top because of work being done against friction as the rope runs.

If the belayer can't anchor and the weight differential is substantial (climber weighing 50% more than the belayer for carabiner pulley efficiency of 1/3), then friction has to be added or the belayer is gonna fly.

Having the climber walk around the belayer is probably the only way for a party to add friction at the top point without re-rigging the system. (Some zig-zag clipping of the belayer-side strand to some lower protection points might work in some cases.) Over long periods of time, having twisted ropes might wear the sheaths a little quicker if everyone did it, but the fact that the rope is always moving ought to make this a minor effect. After all, you can use a Munter hitch for years with much more bending and rubbing without sawing through a strand. I'd be interested to see the setup that caused one strand to saw through the other on the ropes course---I suspect that something about the rigging had the ropes bend over an edge or surface and one of the ropes was actually pinned under the other by the weight of the climber.

The rope-twisting method will work best with a pipe as the top point. If there are carabiners, the question is whether their suspension system can twist. If it can, and if the fallen climber is hanging free, then the twist in the rope simply twists the slings or chains holding the carabiners and the rope itself ends up running without twists.

amarius wrote:Amount of friction when rope runs over itself is, indeed, quite big. The rope will, most definitely, not saw through the sheaf since the contact patch is always shifting over both strands. You might have difficult time believing this statement, but I will refer to people belaying with Munter hitch - similar rope over rope friction is encountered there.

Excellent point. This is why I clarified that I witnessed this "sawing through the sheath" on a ropes course - the situation was indeed different that what normally occurs while top rope climbing in a gym, and it wasn't a course I was running, so I have no idea what sort of condition the rope was in prior. Still enough to make me not want to do it though!

Anyway I've never seen anyone intentionally wrap a rope, although it sounds like a not totally uncommon practice. Maybe it's just not a popular thing to do in the northeastern US, which is where I've done most of my climbing. I'd rather use an anchor, or a double wrap system on a belay bar, but if you're at a gym with suitable ballast/ground anchor and can't re-rig the top I guess options are pretty limited.

Personally, I also don't love climbing at indoor gyms that use carabiners and chains instead of belay bars. I learned to climb at a gym with belay bars and in general all of the nicer gyms I have been to have them and the only gyms I have been to that didn't were all pretty ghetto (both in terms of the facility and staff). I guess I just have a negative association with the carabiner setup used in an indoor environment even though I top rope on carabiners outside all the time.

Kari Post wrote: I learned to climb at a gym with belay bars and in general all of the nicer gyms I have been to have them and the only gyms I have been to that didn't were all pretty ghetto (both in terms of the facility and staff). I guess I just have a negative association with the carabiner setup used in an indoor environment even though I top rope on carabiners outside all the time.

See, that's exactly why crowd sourcing opinions is important!
I, on other hand, hate belaying off the belay bar since the bar provides unrealistic amount of friction - the only time when I had that much friction TR belaying outside was when the rope was dragging over two ledges and slab. Additionally, I get tired of pulling that rope, it is near impossible to get a feel for the level of tension in the system as well. Of course, catching a fall and holding a person is really easy, so easy, that for lighter climbers, one has to actively feed the rope into belay device to get them to the ground. Very convenient, but doesn't teach best belay practices, such as choosing appropriate level of tension in the system, feeling climber's movement, learning to catch the fall with proper lock off of the brake hand, taking the weight of climber while sitting down into harness as opposed to letting the harness slide up the crack.

Amarius, have you ever tried belaying off a belay bar without a wrap in the rope? By far the least friction of any setup I've tried, and definitely encourages the belayer to be more attentive and better "feel" the climber at the end, which translates well to climbing outdoors or belaying lead.

I know unwrapped belay bars are not customary (all commercial gyms I have been to wrap the rope). I tried to see if there is a consensus on wrapped ropes when using belay bars, but don't have a copy of the Climbing Wall Association's Industry Practices manual to see if there is a recommendation and had no luck finding any real research on the matter. I agree that wrapped bars provide a ton of friction and far less feel than biners.

Kari Post wrote:Amarius, have you ever tried belaying off a belay bar without a wrap in the rope?

Yes I have. In terms of feedback, it is better that the single wrap.