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Re: adding wraps to a toprope in the gym for heavy climbers/light belayers

Original Post
Kiri Namtvedt · · Minneapolis, MN · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 30

This is a habit I've never acquired, although it seems to be quite common in the gyms nowadays. I never felt I needed to do this (wrap one end of the rope around the other to add friction) until yesterday...

I just had a weird experience of this sort on a gym toprope, of all things!

I've climbed with this guy for years, but he's currently out of shape for climbing and carrying more weight than he ever has before. He's probably 60 lbs heavier than me, at least.

I was belaying him on a slightly overhanging toprope. I wasn't keeping the rope ultra-tight, but was keeping up with him. About 30 feet up he went for a dynamic move (thus adding additional slack all of a sudden) and then fell.

I shot upwards, which I expected. What I didn't expect was to KEEP shooting upwards with no reduction in speed! I flew up and he flew down and we didn't stop until he crashed into my head. It was weird and scary, and although I seem to have come through it with nothing more than some stiff/sore neck and shoulder muscles, it weirded me out.

For the record, I've caught this guy on some huge sport climbing whippers outdoors, on which I flew up to the first bolt; I thought I knew what I was in for.

Is there a concensus on rope-wrapping? Part of why my friend and I have never done it is because of how hard it would be on the rope.

Daryl Allan · · Sierra Vista, AZ · Joined Sep 2006 · Points: 1,040

I'm having trouble picturing what you mean about wrapping one end of the rope around the other.

chuffnugget · · Bolder, CO · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 0

Me too, but ropes rubbing on each other to purposely create friction sounds like a bad idea.

rging · · Salt Lake City, Ut · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 210

Problem is that many anchors that the gyms use are smooth, wide pieces of pipe. Probably six inch diameter or so. It doesn't create 1/10 the friction that a rapide or carabiner would. I have never been to a gym that doesn't either rap the rope around the anchor once or make you tether to something (only for top roping of course).

H.. · · Washingtonville NY · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 45
Daryl Allan wrote:I'm having trouble picturing what you mean about wrapping one end of the rope around the other.
I think what he means is wrapping the rope completely around the pipe that is the TR anchor, instead of just having it go up, over, and then back down.
Daryl Allan · · Sierra Vista, AZ · Joined Sep 2006 · Points: 1,040
H.. wrote: I think what he means is wrapping the rope completely around the pipe that is the TR anchor, instead of just having it go up, over, and then back down.
Ohh,.. I've seen this attempted once but it resulted in too much friction and there was an issue taking up slack and lowering.

Kiri, are there no floor anchors in the gym? They're fairly easy to add in later. Just a bolt/hanger installed in the slab will do. Might be worth talking to the owner about and would be easier than re-rigging a tr setup at each route you wanted to climb.
RockinOut · · NY, NY · Joined May 2010 · Points: 100

I think he`s referring to twisting the climbing end of the rope around the belay end of the rope, not giving the pipe an extra wrap at the top. As a climber how would you efficiently put another wrap in the top anchor? I think he`s talking more about a twist so the ropes are rubbing eachother. The gym I climb in actually gives 1 full wrap around the 6 inch wide pipe at the top.

teece303 · · Highlands Ranch, CO · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 596

I've never been lifted off the ground by a TOPROPE fall in the gym in my life, so I'd find that disconcerting, too.

Can you describe more about what you mean with the wraps you are talking about?

In my experience, the complete wrap of the top rope around the pipe at the top has always added MORE than enough friction, so that top rope belaying is really a breeze, and it never occurred to me that more friction might be needed.

It really sounds like a lot of slack built up somehow (the dyno you described?).

wivanoff · · Northeast, USA · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 674
David Sahalie wrote:Me too, but ropes rubbing on each other to purposely create friction sounds like a bad idea.
Werner Münter, calling Werner Münter ;)
Mark E Dixon · · Possunt, nec posse videntur · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 974
Daryl Allan wrote: Kiri, are there no floor anchors in the gym? They're fairly easy to add in later. Just a bolt/hanger installed in the slab will do. Might be worth talking to the owner about and would be easier than re-rigging a tr setup at each route you wanted to climb.
Some of the gyms around here have these big sandbag type anchors you can clip into if there's a big weight mismatch. I think they are 30-40 pounds but haven't hefted one for a while. Pretty easy to drag around the gym and work well to keep the belayer out of the first draw. Should work for toproping too.
andyedwards · · OR · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 205


I think she means twisting the rope around itself, not the anchor.
Like the top left part, though less exaggerated.
Kiri Namtvedt · · Minneapolis, MN · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 30

What I mean by "wraps" is actually twisting the climber's end of the rope around the belayer's end, rather than wrapping around an anchor at the top.

I've seen a lot of people do the twisting thing in the gym, but it seems very much like not something anyone would do outside with their own ropes, as it would no doubt be hard on the rope.

But... ugh, guys, I'm a convert. My gym doesn't have anchors in the floor (I've never seen any in use!) and I've also never seen any heavy objects used to anchor belayers. This rope twisting thing seems to be the accepted practice.

(BTW - I am female)

Ian Stewart · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2010 · Points: 155

I'd ask the gym. It's pretty standard to have a 4-6" or so pipe as the anchor with the rope wrapped once fully around it in order to give plenty of friction. At my heaviest there was about an 80lb difference between my wife and I and neither of us have ever had a problem belaying the other. I certainly wouldn't wrap the rope around itself.

Kiri Namtvedt wrote:(BTW - I am female)
It shouldn't make a difference what gender you are...
Kevin Craig · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2002 · Points: 325
Jake D. wrote:Luckily my local gyms don't do this. I find it gives false security and again will make people complacent outdoors. learn how to belay properly, Belay right up next to the wall, anchor yourself if your climber outweighs you so much that you are lifted.
Absolute, utter RUBBISH! You've obviously drunk the Kool-Aid of gyms like SportRock in the N. Virginia/Maryland area who tout this line of crap. Name me ONE accident that resulted from someone being "complacent" because their gym wrapped the rope around the pipe at the top! OTOH, I bet we can come up with a number of incidents and near incidents like the one described here that have resulted from non-wrapped TRs in gyms. In case you haven't noticed, these non-wrapped set-ups offer substantially LESS friction than a normal outdoor climbing situation. Of course, I'm a big climber and have had people only 20-30 lb less than me have trouble maintaining control while lowering me in the non-wrapped situation whereas at my local gyms (who DO wrap the rope at the top), one partner who weighs 50-60 lbs less than me is able to maintain control with no problem. Outdoors there's no problem at all so I'd say the wrapped scenario is more representative of a "real" climbing situation.

That said, OP: I'd pester your gym to do the double wrap around the pipe at the top rather than wrapping the belay strand around the climber's strand. That's a poor and potentially dangerous substitute for a proper TR set-up.
cjon3s · · Sterling, VA · Joined Sep 2012 · Points: 5

What's wrong with anchoring when your climber outweighs you? And even if your belayer is lifted.. they should still be well in control of the rope.

rging · · Salt Lake City, Ut · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 210
cjon3s wrote:What's wrong with anchoring when your climber outweighs you? And even if your belayer is lifted.. they should still be well in control of the rope.
If the gym doesn't have a place to anchor in then you don't have a choice. It would be intersting to know if this gym does in fact have a place to tether into. I have never been to a gym that didn't either rap the rope or have a place to tether but there are a lot of gyms out there and they are not all equal.
BrianWS · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 790
Jake D. wrote: When i'm inside i belay people many pounds more than i do on a regular basis. anchoring in i have zero issues lowering or holding them when hanging etc with a single wrapped pipe. outside when lowering someone heavy i'll anchor, squat down close to the wall, toe hook a rock, etc. i weigh 125lbs and with a double wrap pipe i've had my belayer basically let go (still hold rope but put slack out) that is not realistic outdoors, ever. They do that to basically create a softer landing if someone loses the belay. learn how to belay. learn more if you're lighter than everyone else.
In a perfect world, every gym member and guest will belay if and only if they pass a proper belay test. Of course, this is not always the case and I would guess that on any given busy weeknight or weekend, there are at least 10 folks belaying who did not (and would not be able to) pass the gym's belay test.
Also, of the customers who have just recently taken or passed the gym's belay test, many of them had literally 'learned' their knots and belay technique 30 minutes prior in the parking lot from Youtube or a friend. I've seen many folks ace their belay tests only to forget all technique about 10 minutes later.
The high-friction TR setups in gyms are designed specifically with these sorts of folks in mind. Yes, folks should learn to belay properly, but be realistic: with gym climbing gaining as much popularity as it has, accident potential has gone through the roof. From a business standpoint, you must do everything possible to keep clients injury-free regardless of whether or not it breeds bad habits outdoors.
Kiri Namtvedt · · Minneapolis, MN · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 30

People make a lot of assumptions.

I am the original poster. I mentioned that I was female because several people called me "him", and because women are often lighter than their male climbing partners. I have been climbing for just about twenty years; this ought to go without saying, but I know how to belay and have caught many falls, both lead and toprope.

The reason I posted about this was because it was a really odd, unusual experience; I've NEVER flown up into my climber like that except when belaying this same heavy guy on an outdoor sport climb, and that was when he took a substantial lead fall.

In retrospect I think it's possible that I rose up a little at the moment he fell, because I was moving as I took up slack; possibly my upward movement contributed toward our relative momentums and, added together with the weight differential and the lack of friction, caused my flight.

My local gym uses two opposed biners for anchors, not a pipe that can be wrapped. In recent years I have seen MANY people twist the climber's end of the rope around the belayer's - i.e. by having the climber walk a circle around the belayer - at the gym, in order to add friction. I'm just curious about whether other people see this as a reasonable technique or kinda dumb because of the extra wear on the rope. My local gym also does not seem to advocate floor anchors or weight anchors; I've NEVER seen people use anything of the sort.

Kiri Namtvedt · · Minneapolis, MN · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 30

P.S. I was NOT standing far away from the wall. I was DIRECTLY below my climber, and I flew STRAIGHT UP into the air, right into his butt.

Kiri Namtvedt · · Minneapolis, MN · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 30

Re: incompetent belayers being passed; I have seen some frightful sights myself, but I've also heard of people who've been climbing for years being watched like a hawk and scolded for having a hand at the wrong angle. Gym employees can't work miracles, and can't be everywhere at once--and sadly have the same potential as the customers to be incompetent at their jobs.

Ian Stewart · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2010 · Points: 155
Kiri Namtvedt wrote:My local gym uses two opposed biners for anchors, not a pipe that can be wrapped. In recent years I have seen MANY people twist the climber's end of the rope around the belayer's - i.e. by having the climber walk a circle around the belayer - at the gym, in order to add friction.
Two opposed biners is standard for a TR anchor, so I'm not sure what else could have been going on to cause you to be lifted so much more than usual. Physics hasn't changed in the 20 years you've been climbing. Do you not TR belay often (eg. do you generally just belay lead climbers, where your lift is limited to the first draw)? For the record, how high were you actually lifted and how far did he fall before you both came to a stop?

As for the rope wrapping, I would never do it, and I'm surprised that the gym would allow (and possibly promote) this. I'd rather fall an extra few feet on a super soft belay.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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