Dead Lifts???

The last few months I have been pushing my climb a bit, but every monday my mid to lower back is sore/tired/tight and I want to continue climbing harder but hopefully without this happening.

A friend of mine is really into Kettlebells, and he thought that might be the answer, I asked a couple local badass climbers, that are also Crossfit trainers (which I do not participate in), what they thought of swinging bells would do and they both thought that I would likely f_ck my back up more if I didn't do them 100% perfectly. They suggested dead lifts. Also of note is that both of these guys look very much like Crossfit trainers, they were likely the #1 athlete in whatever high school they went to and are of probably very strong naturally.

Does anyone use dead lifts to improve their climbing? From what I read it can have a lot of benefits for quite a few muscle groups including: core, hamstrings, lower and middle back, glutes and traps. These are all muscle groups I want to strengthen, but being 6'4" and scrawny I'm concerned that I may hurt my spine even more.

Sure it'll help. Go super light until you KNOW you have solid technique then move on from there. Just for options you can try the new (new to mainstream fitness) ropes workout where you hold a large, heavy rope in each hand and move your arms (its an entire body workout though) up and down. 30 second sets x 3-5 sets at least once per week makes a difference.

I have a gnarly lower back and knees so I assure you if I'm mentioning it you can find your version of good technique and get max results without hurting yourself.

Real quick: it helps because climbing is about expansion and contraction (tension and relaxation) and working out in the gym period can help stimulate/strengthen your muscles and therefore you can simulate the stress applied while climbing but in a gym (you can stress the fibers and create muscular endurance adaptations in the gym that immediately cross over to the vertical world). Its good for climbs at your limit especially, won't do much for someone not pushing their known limits unless they're working out for just a strong/solid/healthy body.

If you can find a row machine that fits you, use it.

Dead lifts can't hurt if you are wading into them as the stoned master said. Take it slow, find your stride.

also:

bent over row

mensfitness.com/training/re…

Is this what you meant, Stoned?

I would rather not have to buy anything new as far as equipment goes, although I may need more plates for lifting, since I only have around 150lbs right now.

Do you think shoulder shrugs do anything? I was on a really steep crack this weekend and afterwards the muscles in my lower neck were tight, looking at a diagram of back muscles it showed the traps going up the neck and down below the shoulder blades, I think I need to do some serious work to strengthen this section as well.

If done correctly, and barring any pre-existing spinal issues, a strength program that includes deadlifts and squats should help quite a bit. Check out Mark Rippetoe's excellent primer Starting Strength. You'll need a barbell-friendly gym or a cage and weights. You don't need to drink a gallon of milk a day, or follow any crazy diets.

Technique and smart programming are important to avoid hurting yourself. And even if you do things correctly, you can still hurt yourself (just like climbing).

I am unfortunate enough to suffer from spondylolisthesis, a couple of herniated discs, and sciatica, but have used the above program to get stronger and improve my back health.

I second Jason on the Starting Strength recommendation. Three lifts a workout; three workouts a week. Each one takes about an hour if you do it right. I am definitely not a superstar athlete and have used the program to great benefit.

I used to get the same sore lower back you were talking about, but it seems that the squat and deadlift training have alleviated that problem. My core is also just so much stronger now it is no longer the first thing to give out on hard boulder problems.

I'd do it. Just take it easy to start and perfect the form.

to address the shoulder shrugs: waste of time to do it as a separate lift. The deadlift, while not targeting them directly, does hit the traps. If you're still really concerned with the traps, I know a few guys who always throw a shrug in at the end of each DL rep. YMMV but it works for them. They caution to actually complete the DL before the shrug; in other words, don't shrug to complete the deadlift.

Kettlebells kick ASS. But so do dead lifts. Don't waste time doing the "hard style" kettlebell training. Look for guidance into the sport kettlebell. The sport kettlebell events are 10 minutes long. You either swing and push over head a bunch of weight or just push overhead a bunch of weight. It can be done one handed or two. If you are really interested I'll post a few links to web sites.

All this said, dead lifts are freaking amazing whole body exercises. But deads and bells are different animals. Deads are strength moves, bells are a strength endurance sport.

In my opinion, if you can incorporate both into your climbing workouts you will have all the bases covered. Don't forget to throw in some handstand work, front levers, back levers, L-sits, ring dips and ring pushups. You will be a machine!!

Dead lifts are awesome but I believe they are kind of an advanced lift. Maybe start with squats then move on to dead lifts. If your lower back is weak dead lifts will fix that, or break you. Also shrugs are a great lift but if I don't do them with regularity the soreness I get is unbearable( headaches).

Jason, Zach and a few others have already given you great advice. Few more things:

You can just as easily hurt yourself doing dead lifts or squats as you can doing kettleball workouts. Jumping into any type of exercise too quickly is not the thing to do. Follow a program that is designed for someone who has never lifted before. I believe the one listed above is probably a good place to start. Whatever you do, don't start with three intense sessions in the first week. You'll get hurt. Start with one light session the first week, two the next week, then maybe three on the fourth week. When you think it's time to increase intensity or add weight, wait another week or two. Even then, increase in the smallest increments possible and only one increase per three workouts.

Lifting is like climbing - you can't just do one exercise or you will become unbalanced. Doing only dead lifts may help in the beginning, but long term it is not a great idea. For long term health, you need to be involved in a program that is designed to strengthen your entire body. Incorporate the type of climbing you do into the program.

PS, it is great that you are being proactive. Lower back issues have a habit if causing all kids of other problems. Get it sorted. Add in some heavy stretching and yoga after your workouts to stay lean and flexible.

Jason Kim wrote:Check out Mark Rippetoe's excellent primer Starting Strength. You'll need a barbell-friendly gym or a cage and weights. You don't need to drink a gallon of milk a day, or follow any crazy diets.

I can get the book in electronic form for $5, should I do that or is having the hard copy worth $30???

Also I have weights in my garage, a barbell and around 150 lbs in plates. I haven't messed with the weight rack that came with the house, but I think I might be able to do squats with it. I really don't want to get hurt, so will doing low weight, high reps with good form be enough to see overall body strength increases? Or do I really need to do these lifts heavy to have the effect I'm looking for?

Thanks for the input, it looks like others have had good results from dead lifts and squats.

I'm not a complete newby to lifting, although I've only been "trained" on proper tecnique through buddies in the Air Force while stuck in Kuwait. Do you think it's essential to have a mirror up to maintain good form??? Or are those just so meatheads can check themselves out as their muscles bulge???

Listen to Ryan as far as the ramp up in intensity...

Low reps, high weight is the way to go to see true strength and power results. High reps will just help you do more of what you can already do. High weight will make you stronger and help to alleviate the back problems because your muscles will be able to handle the loads you put on them.

Mirrors - absolutely essential for proper form maintenance on squats and deadlifts. Don't get caught up staring at your muscles. Look at your form!

An awesome transition into deadlifts is to begin with single leg romainian dead lifts.

Check out Eric Cressey's dead lift page on youtube. The guy is a beast, and recognized as one of the best fitness trainers/experts in a lot of circles.

youtube.com/user/ecressey/v…

Single leg RDL's can be done with 20lb dumb bells, and make you very very sore the next day (good kind of sore) if you're just starting with dead lifts.

Here'e the video to single leg RDL with dumb bell:

youtube.com/watch?v=erVRy0P…

If your back problems are muscular in nature you might want to try stretches and a sports massage/deep tissue work that target the glutes, quads and hip flexors. I do quite a bit of heavy lifting in addition to climbing and the times I have had problems with my back muscles, particularly in my lower back, have been because the flexibility in my quads, glutes and hip flexors has been poor. The muscles in your upper legs and hips eventually tie into your back and tightess in one just causes problems in another. Using a foam roller after I climb or lift to target those areas has helped. Doing yoga once a week has also helped me as well.

This site has some great tutorials for gaining mobility in different areas: mobilitywod.com

sweagan wrote: I can get the book in electronic form for $5, should I do that or is having the hard copy worth $30??? Also I have weights in my garage, a barbell and around 150 lbs in plates. I haven't messed with the weight rack that came with the house, but I think I might be able to do squats with it. I really don't want to get hurt, so will doing low weight, high reps with good form be enough to see overall body strength increases? Or do I really need to do these lifts heavy to have the effect I'm looking for? Thanks for the input, it looks like others have had good results from dead lifts and squats. I'm not a complete newby to lifting, although I've only been "trained" on proper tecnique through buddies in the Air Force while stuck in Kuwait. Do you think it's essential to have a mirror up to maintain good form??? Or are those just so meatheads can check themselves out as their muscles bulge???

I am a book collector, so I'd say it's worth the $30, but that is up to you. The info is the same.

150 lbs. might get you started for a couple of weeks, but you'll soon need more. Plates can be found on the cheap through craigslist, though. Sometimes even for free.

The deadlift is usually done as a low-rep, high-weight exercise (for a number of reasons). I'd suggest you read the book, follow Rip's advice, and eventually you can fine-tune a program that will best suit your needs.

Self-critique using a mirror is a bad idea and will probably do more harm than good. Use a video camera and watch yourself afterwards, if anything. Watch out for self-proclaimed experts on technique, too. Possession of big muscles or a vast amount of strength does not necessarily mean anything.

There's a Starting Strength forum that has a lot of free, useful info. Like Mountain Project, you need to be good at sifting through the quality info from the BS.

Zach Kling wrote:Mirrors - absolutely essential for proper form maintenance on squats and deadlifts. Don't get caught up staring at your muscles. Look at your form!

Would disagree with this, and so do some notable strength coaches. When you use a mirror to observe your own form during a lift, you disengage important neuromuscular feedback pathways by replacing them with visual cues. You need to learn how to feel the lift, in other words. Having a qualified coach is best, but using a video camera to record your movement and then self-critique can also work.

go light, progress slowly, master correct form above all else. I like to do deads from a 3' x 3' portable wooden platform (it's 6-7 inches high) the gym has....that i slide into to the stance position of the rack. This way i can get deep on the lowering portion of the movement without having the plates bang on the ground....or even touch the ground. Keep in mind the mechanics of the squat within the dead lift movement need to be strict.

I also warm up with seated squats and good-mornings, bent-over rows, and seated cable rows beforehand. I would avoid going into deadlifts cold. Get your core, legs, and lower back/shoulders warmed up before hand. I alternate sets of leg raises (one of those standing, elbows-on-pads, back against pad, gripping handles devices) in between my DL sets to keep my lower back and abs engaged during the process.

Excellent exercise.

I also like to do an exercise that is a squat with dumbells. With arms bent so that the db's are raised at your chest (top of the curl position, palms in) press the db's overhead, rotating as you push them up so at the top of the press palms are facing out (this is sometimes called an Arnold when done from a seated position). With db's overhead slowly squat and along with the squat motion, drop the db's down, rotating them back to chest height/palms in. Push up out of the squat and press/rotate the db's back overhead during the ascent from the squat so that they are directly overhead when you are fully erect out of the squat.

Focus on balance, the planes of motion you are executing the movements in, and keeping the db's balanced throughout the press movement

This exercise, along with dead lifts, have an aerobic component and engage a lot of your muscular system top to bottom.

I have also read that a military press/squat combo is a good exercise for the same reasons. Haven't tried that one

Google: piriformis stretches

They help a ton with the lower back.

You can also stretch your sciatic nerve which helps release tension in your lower back/hamstrings.

Both of those have helped sort out my lower back pain/tightness a ton.

Start out with low weight on any lifting. You aren't bodybuilding or power lifting. You could probably just do a regimen of non-weighted exercises that would strengthen and support your climbing.

Bumps for KBs and deadlifts. I was a total gym rat before I got into climbing and used both heavily. They will do wonders for you, as long as you keep true form and don't let your ego get the best of you. Start slow in front of a mirror to keep forum. I started deadlifting 135lbs as a start weight to get proper forum. And I used a 35lbs kb to start. I'm 6ft 175lbs. You will progress quickly just can't stress enough how important proper forum is. Good luck sir.

Here's the thing OP: You don't have enough weight. 150lb is deadlift weight for a 9 yo little girl. Unless you plan to buy more plates,(which run ~$1/lb) you're not really going to challenge yourself/get much stronger.

Will S wrote:Here's the thing OP: You don't have enough weight. 150lb is deadlift weight for a 9 yo little girl. Unless you plan to buy more plates,(which run ~$1/lb) you're not really going to challenge yourself/get much stronger.

Not so fast.

OP, you did say you were 6'4" and scrawny (I'm guessing 170-180lb?). The bar weights 45lb so that's 195lb. Deadlifts are not easy to master for tall and skinny people - I know because I am 6ft and was about 140 when I started lifting. It will take a while for you to need more than 195 - at least long enough for you to figure out if it is worth spending money to buy more plates. And like Jason said, you can usually find them cheap or free because people buy them for New Year's Resolutions and shit, and they either sell them or leave them behind when they move.