Momentum Climbing Accident - Utah

zoso wrote:Happy healing Amanda. Let me get something straight though. I understand you are suing Momentum for this accident?

wait. huh?

WOW a law suit against the MO? Why stop there? Why not just take a bad fall at Division and bring a suit against the Feds? They got deeper pockets than the MO. I would say take a fall in Zion, but I think the whole sequester thing has dipped into the National Park System budget.

Tom Hore wrote:WOW a law suit against the MO? Why stop there? Why not just take a bad fall at Division and bring a suit against the Feds? They got deeper pockets than the MO. I would say take a fall in Zion, but I think the whole sequester thing has dipped into the National Park System budget.

Was anything even confirmed or are you just free styling here?

Fair question - if you're planning on suing Momentum, I don't think you have much right to ask climbers to chip in to your medical bills.

So Momentum is responsible for a climbers' failure to tie their own knot? Interesting.

abqdrew wrote:So Momentum is responsible for a climbers' failure to tie their own knot? Interesting.

First, it would be interesting to get that to stick with the waivers signed, knowingly engaging in a dangerous sport, etc., etc..

Second, is there confirmation she is in fact suing?

Third, I recently met an employee of Momentum while climbing at Red Rock. She seemed nice.

That is all.

re: insurance statement. I absolutely agree. However, I would point out that going to a climbing gym is hardly a dangerous activity. This is more of a freak accident. I also got the feeling of shirking personal responsibility from the website. Should'a had a bit more remorse and self-appologetic tone. Definately didn't help being written in a 3rd person voice, and the B.S. about the knot "somehow" becoming undone. Correctly tied figure-8s do not untie. Even a partially finished fig-8 would hold weight.

Colonel Mustard wrote:Third, I recently met an employee of Momentum while climbing at Red Rock. She seemed nice. That is all.

Preposterous.

From her donation website, "She has accrued more than 68,000 USD in medical bills thus far and like most young Americans is uninsured."

I'm not sure that most young Americans are uninsured, but it's sure not a good idea not to be. I had insurance for most of my 20's, I did have a few months here and there that I was between policies, but I always thought the risk of being without insurance was worse than paying the premiums. Especially considering I had a climbing accident with a total bill of $125,000 when I was 20. Fortunately I only ended up pay $5000 out of pocket, which still took me several years of dealing with collections and billing offices to get it paid off.

my advice to amanda, honestly if it were me, I'd probably declare bankruptcy and start over, but short of that, if you make good faith payments, even if they're $5 a month, I don't think they can turn you over to collection agencies so start mailing $5 checks and keep mailing $5 checks. If/when you can pay more, do it but for now, do what you can to keep them off your back and to convince them that you do intend to pay. At some point you'll both come to an agreement that will satisfy the debt.

notmyname wrote:However, I would point out that going to a climbing gym is hardly a dangerous activity.

My comment was more of a general comment not specific to this case. As I wrote this incident was just one of many that have occurred over the past couple of years - not just with climbers but with others. The bottom line is that the activity was a recreational.

notmyname wrote: ... This is more of a freak accident.

handsndirt wrote: When Amanda climbed to the top of her fourth route for the day she asked to come down. At this time she watched her rope slip through her harness and fall to the ground. Somehow, her rope knot had come untied during her climb to the top.

I would not call it a freak accident. It was a fubar plain and simple. A freak accident is being stuck by lightening or being hit by rock fall. I took a bad fall when I first started climbing. It was not an accident, I fubar'ed. Fortunately, I walked away hamburger elbows. More over my parents knew I fubar'ed and made sure it did not reflect negatively on our climbing club.

Accidents are always possible. That's why it's so important to have strong mentors and partners to help develop good safety habits.

I certainly send my best to the accident victim , and hope for a full recovery. It's no doubt a trying expieriance dealing with the financial burdens on top of the physical.

After visiting the fundraising site, I still have some questions. I didn't find anything about a lawsuit against the gym and hope that's not really happening. As a long time member I can attest to their commitment to safety. In the end however the safety is in the hands of the patron. If you've been tested on your knots and belaying, signed the waiver and then get hurt, it's generally a matter of personnel responsibility. Unless some unmentioned circumstances exist, in regards to faulty equipment or the like. According to the fundraiser site "...She watched her rope slip through her harness and fall to the ground. Somehow, her rope knot had come untied during her climb to the top.". That sounds like an issue of personnel negligence unless I'm missing something.

Again, I'm truly sorry for your ordeal. Hopefully it's a good lesson on double checking our setups for everybody reading. It's easy to get complacent when we do something on a regular basis. Especially in an environment like the gym, where the padded floors and pre- hung draws make the danger level feel very benign.

It's technically heresay, but I heard:

It was hard to get a lawyer to take the case (well, duh), but they finally found one. The basis of their lawsuit will be that Momentum didn't supply an alternate safety mechanism in the event of a rope failure. There should have been another rope to hook onto, or a bolt on the wall. They have found an expert witness that is a consultant for military climbing gyms and that she would never allow anyone to climb a gym route without personally tying each and every knot herself.

There's MORE than plenty to pick apart in that paragraph there.

If this is NOT the case, by all means, the accident victim should speak up. I don't mean to be gossipy or cruel here, but I feel it should be known if this girl is asking for $.

I truly hope you heal well

However, if you are indeed trying to sue, I pity you.

If you can't be accountable for your own actions, an adult you are not nor a climber should you be.

Instead of helping find you a lawyer your mom should be teaching you personal accountability and responsibility.

You cant afford your bills because you don't have insurance and yet you're going to waste money on a lawyer on a lawsuit that will not succeed.

This entire situation is exactly the kind of nonsense that makes climbing such a legal and access issue, inside or out, for us climbers who are responsible and accountable.

CJC wrote:really sorry this happened to you. and I wish you a speedy and complete recovery. I've been there and it's a long road back. but what's up with joining this community just to hold your hand out?

well, really she joined a month after the accident and a month ago but still her only contribution here is a picture and asking for money.

I'd consider helping with a few bucks if I knew there was NO lawyer scum involved. zoso has never been a shit talker.

zoso wrote:It's technically heresay, but my wife was told by her mom that: It was hard to get a lawyer to take the case (well, duh), but they finally found one. The basis of their lawsuit will be that Momentum didn't supply an alternate safety mechanism in the event of a rope failure. There should have been another rope to hook onto, or a bolt on the wall. They have found an expert witness that is a consultant for military climbing gyms and that she would never allow anyone to climb a gym route without personally tying each and every knot herself. There's MORE than plenty to pick apart in that paragraph there. If this is NOT the case, by all means, the accident victim should speak up. I don't mean to be gossipy or cruel here, but I feel it should be known if this girl is asking for $.

What would she have supposedly "clipped" in with had there been a bolt or alternate rope? If she was at the top, I don't get why she didn't just pull over the top and straddle it.

Amanda, if the suing story is true, 68k sounds pretty cheap to sell your character. When the shit hits the fan is the true test. Take personal responsibility for your own fuck-ups. If the financial issue is too much for you to take, and you can't make an arrangement for them to accept a smaller payment, then declare bankruptcy.

I would think the gym would be able to come up with a thousand expert witnesses who would debunk the Army consultants idea as having relevance to a civilian gym.

M Sprague wrote: I would think the gym would be able to come up with a thousand expert witnesses who would debunk the Army consultants idea as having relevance to a civilian gym.

This is a crap lawsuit. Probably no breach of duty nor causation.

And trying to sue probably won't cost her a dime. In personal injury cases like this, the lawyer usually only gets paid if the plaintiff wins.

Unfortunately, though, "crap" lawsuits like this have a huge impact on our sport and on American society in general. The threat of lawsuits like this, and the insurance payments associated therewith, are a huge drain on climbing gyms, which are generally small locally owned businesses.

If you are going to sue the gym, why not also try to contrive a way to sue the doctors that treated you as well? If you are going to litigate away your character, why not try to sue another set of honest people who were only providing you with a worthwhile service? Hey, you might get some extra money that way.

I have long thought that the tort system in this country needs a stringent system of reverse penalties, such that when the plaintiff loses is absurd cases such as this, the plaintiff must compensate the defendant fully for time and legal expenses. Would probably cut down on these frivolous lawsuits.

JCM wrote:I have long thought that the tort system in this country needs a stringent system of reverse penalties, such that when the plaintiff loses is absurd cases such as this, the plaintiff must compensate the defendant fully for time and legal expenses. Would probably cut down on these frivolous lawsuits.

100% agree. Maybe include a rule that the lawyer will loose their license if they bring too many of these frivolous suits.

JCM wrote: I have long thought that the tort system in this country needs a stringent system of reverse penalties, such that when the plaintiff loses is absurd cases such as this, the plaintiff must compensate the defendant fully for time and legal expenses. Would probably cut down on these frivolous lawsuits.

Getting off topic but such reforms are already in place via frivolous lawsuit penalties. That said even with such penalties in place the defendants do not always recover all of their costs.