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QC Lab—The Dangers Of Modifying Your Gear

Original Post
Bang Nhan · · Charlottesville, VA · Joined Dec 2010 · Points: 35
Ray Pinpillage · · West Egg · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 180

Half of that sounds like it came in response to CT.

divnamite · · New York, NY · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 90

Which half?

Ray Pinpillage · · West Egg · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 180

The various crampon issues and ice tool leashes.

mtoensing · · AZ · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 705

Pretty good article but I think the doubling up the belay loop on your harness is a bunch of crap. They didn't even give a good reason not to do it other than it adds clutter. I always add another loop on my harness.

mtoensing · · AZ · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 705

I guess it started when one of my belay loops got frayed in a squeeze and I've done so since then.

Ben Brotelho · · Albany, NY · Joined May 2011 · Points: 520

If you're tied in, you automatically have a second belay loop

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
Ben Brotelho wrote:If you're tied in, you automatically have a second belay loop
exactomundo ;)
mtoensing · · AZ · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 705

I have frayed harnesses and core shot ropes at the knot from heinous squeeze before so the backup is just a little something extra. I am not advocating its use, I just like it.

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
John Wilder wrote: Um, not so much. Loading the interior of your knot by itself is a bad idea for the same reason we dont use a fig-8 as a rappel knot- the knot can capsize under relatively low loads. Even frayed, a belay loop is stronger than most points on your harness. But if you like it, hey, be my guest.
the brits do it all the time ... the BMC/UKCLimbing has recommended it

they dont die in droves from it ... except on the intrawebs

ukclimbing.com/articles/pag…

www.thebmc.co.uk/Download.aspx?id=17
Ben Brotelho · · Albany, NY · Joined May 2011 · Points: 520
John Wilder wrote: Um, not so much. Loading the interior of your knot by itself is a bad idea for the same reason we dont use a fig-8 as a rappel knot- the knot can capsize under relatively low loads. Even frayed, a belay loop is stronger than most points on your harness. But if you like it, hey, be my guest.
Didn't even consider this...

I have never used the rope as a belay loop, but you're right.

cascadeclimbers.com/forum/u…

A good study of capsizing of different knots is somewhere on the page, Fig 8's capsize at a crazy amount lower force than the overhand which is what I use to join ropes (and most people do, right??)
Ian Stewart · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2010 · Points: 155
bearbreeder wrote:the brits do it all the time ... the BMC/UKCLimbing has recommended it
Both of those articles suggest belaying off the rope loop when you're tied into an anchor with the rope and belaying a second such that the force of a fall would be directly on the rope/anchor instead of being transferred through your harness (and body) to your belay loop. I don't think that qualifies as the "loading the interior of your knot" that John was talking about, which would mean non-parallel forces on the knot itself.

Either way, backing up a belay loop even when every harness manufacturer would tell you it's a waste seems pretty silly to me. Belay loops are uber strong, and the reality is that your body is going to break in half before your belay loop does.
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
Ian Stewart wrote: Both of those articles suggest belaying off the rope loop when you're tied into an anchor with the rope and belaying a second such that the force of a fall would be directly on the rope/anchor instead of being transferred through your harness (and body) to your belay loop. I don't think that qualifies as the "loading the interior of your knot" that John was talking about, which would mean non-parallel forces on the knot itself. Either way, backing up a belay loop even when every harness manufacturer would tell you it's a waste seems pretty silly to me. Belay loops are uber strong, and the reality is that your body is going to break in half before your belay loop does.
i use the belay loop generally

but those crazy brits have been belaying off the rope loop for decades ... im not aware of people dying because of it ... perhaps there is a real life failure people talk about?

just tie a fig 8, no yos finish, with a stopper knot if yr worried (it wont invert with a stopper)

i suspect its more along the lines of those deadly crossloading belay biners and other such intrawebs errata ....

there are other real things that kill people ... worry about those

;)
Ian Stewart · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2010 · Points: 155
bearbreeder wrote: i use the belay loop generally but those crazy brits have been belaying off the rope loop for decades ... im not aware of people dying because of it ... perhaps there is a real life failure people talk about? just tie a fig 8, no yos finish, with a stopper knot if yr worried (it wont invert with a stopper) i suspect its more along the lines of those deadly crossloading belay biners and other such intrawebs errata .... there are other real things that kill people ... worry about those ;)
I didn't mean to say it's dangerous, I was just pointing out the difference between the suggested use of the rope as an anchor (that just happens to also be tied to you) vs using the rope as a belay loop (not attached to an anchor). I actually agree with you for a change! I'm not at all worried about my backed-up figure 8 or my belay loop failing.
rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526
bearbreeder wrote: the brits do it all the time ... the BMC/UKCLimbing has recommended it they dont die in droves from it ...
I've been using the rope loop for many years, after I saw the recommendation and analysis of Chris Harmston, who was then the technical guy at BD. I use it with another of those yer gonna die features, the much maligned bowline (with Yosemite finish and barrel knot backup). But note that in the BMC pictures, the figure-8 is backed up with a barrel knot (half a double fisherman's) to make sure the figure-8 can't capsize. In any case, with the rope snugged up to the anchor, ring loading will not occur except possibly at low loads where it doesn't matter.

Taking all these things together, I don't think there's any reason to worry about using the rope loop rather than the belay loop.

I must admit, the account of abrading the rope and belay loop in squeeze chimneys made me smile. BITD, swami belts allowed you to spin the rope to the side so you got neither abrasion nor resistance from it. Sometimes, newer isn't always better.
Brendan Blanchard · · Boulder, CO · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 590
Matt Toensing wrote:Pretty good article but I think the doubling up the belay loop on your harness is a bunch of crap. They didn't even give a good reason not to do it other than it adds clutter. I always add another loop on my harness.
Have you seen BD's testing of belay loops?

blackdiamondequipment.com/e…

Even when cut 90%, it still holds more than 3Kn, at 50% cut, it still holds over 10Kn. Stupid strong, don't worry about it ;)

Conisdering a back up belay loop would be at most, 80% of 24Kn, and much more likely to decay than a belay loop, BD is right in saying it's unnecessary clutter.
1Eric Rhicard · · Tucson · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 10,101

I never use the loop and only have it to keep my leg loops and belt attached. I use my carabiner to connect the Leg Loops and Belt. It allows me to give out a little more rope and My Gri Gri/Cinch don't flop around and cross load. I know, I know, the manufacturers all tell us not to do this, but I almost never get a cross loaded biner with my system. Always cross loading when I use my loop.

Ben Brotelho · · Albany, NY · Joined May 2011 · Points: 520

On a semi-related note: I almost never extend my rappel, despite various arguments by my friends how it is a "better" way to rap. I think it sucks for going over overhangs and bulges! I like to extend and put a backup prussik on my rappel when it is overhanging almost the whole way (like the Madame G rappel at the Gunks....) mostly because I like to hang there with no hands on the brake, and because it still freaks me out haha

EricSchmidt · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 0
rgold wrote:BITD, swami belts allowed you to spin the rope to the side so you got neither abrasion nor resistance from it. Sometimes, newer isn't always better.
Nope, harnesses are still better than swami belts. Always. Why don't you go wear a swami belt if you are so stuck in the old days then?
Brendan Blanchard · · Boulder, CO · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 590
1Eric Rhicard wrote:I never use the loop and only have it to keep my leg loops and belt attached. I use my carabiner to connect the Leg Loops and Belt. It allows me to give out a little more rope and My Gri Gri/Cinch don't flop around and cross load. I know, I know, the manufacturers all tell us not to do this, but I almost never get a cross loaded biner with my system. Always cross loading when I use my loop.
Granted, having the device stay in place is probably nice, but wouldn't clipping through the two loops actually orientate the grigri/cinch sideways, making it twist the loops/biner when loaded?

That's one of the greatest benefits to a belay loop for tube-style devices is that it orientates it up/down instead of somewhat sideways.
Crag Dweller · · New York, NY · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125
1Eric Rhicard wrote:I never use the loop and only have it to keep my leg loops and belt attached. I use my carabiner to connect the Leg Loops and Belt. It allows me to give out a little more rope and My Gri Gri/Cinch don't flop around and cross load. I know, I know, the manufacturers all tell us not to do this, but I almost never get a cross loaded biner with my system. Always cross loading when I use my loop.
No cross loading, perhaps. But, how do you prevent triaxial loading?
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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