La Mesa has been chopped. yes, the one from the April cover of Rock and Ice

Oh shit now I am contributing by adding a page to this nonsense...greeeeeeeat

Ben Brotelho wrote: I would be interested to know what cliffs in the ADK are experiencing these problems. Not that I frequent any cliffs with bolts, but it would be interesting to know which ones that have been "chopped." I'm assuming some southern crag near Lake George?

Message him to find out. He lives in the Caroga Lake area.

Ben, I feel your pain. Seems like these topics get recycled regularly on MP. I recall a similar topic about an area around Justin not that long ago. Wonder if they're related.

There's a lot of assholes on both sides of this issue -- people who bolt with zero input from the community and those who have zero tolerance for any bolting whatsoever. Extremes are useless if you live on a planet with other beings.

David Sahalie wrote: Mo, Thanks for deleting my post. I've learned my lesson not to question authority. I get it, you are in charge and can delete posts that question your power at any time. David

That is weak, I thought your post was pointed but respectful. Imagine that, an admin abusing their power.

You know what they say about assumptions right David?

I hate to burst your censorship bubble but I'm only a route section admin...

What that means is this... I can edit and approve content for only the CT routes sections. I have 0, as in none, zilch, zip, nada, authority in the forums. . . someone must have flag it or something and a forum admin removed it. For the record I have not flagged any posts in here and I would reach out to someone first before pursuing deleting their post.

I just checked the flag records and I don't see it flagged so I don't know what happened...sorry.

Oh and thanks for the apologies for jumping the gun and accusing me of something I didn't and wouldn't do...

Lastly I personally thought up until reg's troll post most comments were good. And just so you know before you all shame an admin for some perceived action... at the top of forum pages it lists the admins responsible for that section for the eastern states it is as follows:

Eastern States
Regional Discussion Forum: Areas include New York, New Hampshire, Connecticut, Vermont
Forum Administrator: Peter Franzen, Adam Stackhouse, M Sprague, saxfiend, Chris treggE, Peter Franzen, Adam Stackhouse, M Sprague, saxfiend, Chris treggE

mountainproject.com/v/easte…

Fair enough Mo. It sounds like you have another admin protecting your honor. MP is a rough world, good to have friends.

I don't see how my post was in any way offensive and deserved flagging or banning. But, the MP gods are greater than my feeble user profile; I shall trust in their judgement and consequences for my offences.

I used to get accused of deleting posts too before Mo took over, it was amusing.I remember one guy from Vegas that used to flip out on me for the same.

David Sahalie wrote:Fair enough Mo. It sounds like you have another admin protecting your honor. MP is a rough world, good to have friends. I don't see how my post was in any way offensive and deserved flagging or banning. But, the MP gods are greater than my feeble user profile; I shall trust in their judgement and consequences for my offences.

Wait was it was the Ivan comment? If it was I didn't have any issue with it. It was on the line I thought but i would have sent u a message first either way. My Ivan post was a blatant intentional 'blowing up' of the issue. Ivan was starting to show up in CT and his action needed to be known to the community. Despite what Tonto posted I didn't blow up anything in NM - I had two comments about the NM situation in that thread. His post is way off base and I wrote him a message expressing my opinion on the matter.

turbotime wrote: We should be coming to terms as a community with where the direction of climbing is headed in CT and balance that with the established climbing. It can't be one extreme or the other (nothing bolted/everything bolted). It needs to be looked at from perspective of if climbs are going to be bolted, they should be those where natural protection is not an option, and weigh if the damage (if any) being done by top rope setups justifies putting bolts instead.

From my discussions with developers in the state - all recently bolted routes with the exception of 1, maybe 2 routes, has been entirely consistent with the above. It was not until the article that someone from the anti-bolt side apparently took the extreme action. Where almost everyone on the bolting side seems to be in the middle ground this individual has propelled the extreme of one side.

I advocate that folks use restraint on both sides and if there are concerns or issues with a bolted route to contact the Ragged Mountain Foundation (www.raggedmtn.org) or the Access Fund. The individuals in these organizations (myself being one) can likely figure out the developers and raise the concern and begin a discussion between the parties and work to a resolution.

Extreme action like this will most likely result in an extreme reaction that in the end probably wont benefit any one group.

For every route chopped, two top ropes or R/X rated routes should get bolted at East Peak or the Main Cliff ;))) I'd vote for In the Presence of God and Golden Age (((JK)))

The local climbers group(i assume thats what the ragged mtn foundation is?) and the access fund need to just continue to get permission from towns and landowners to bolt routes.

Its that simple, that way when the choppers get caught they can be prosecuted. Its the only solution that works in the long run.

Here in AZ we have different ways of dealing with people like this but its the wild west out here.

Ms.M wrote:Nick, the local climbers group (Ragged Mountain Foundation) does have permission to restore bolts at the top of the cliff. They have chosen for years not to, anticipating that they would be chopped and the rock would be defaced. I once participated in their group. When voicing my concerns about this (in an attempt to have a discussion) I was gently pulled aside and told that another individual had buckets of roofing nails poured on their driveway when they voices support for bolts. It is numerous situations like that which have contributed to the current situation. It all disgusts me. We drive in fossil fuel burning cars over roads that are built through sections of blasted rock so that the road isn't too curvy, and hike in through parks where the trees had all be at one time clear cut by the early settlers of the area. The argument against bolts is just silly in my thinking, and antiquated.

lets not forget the trees with spray paint on them so people dont get lost in 10 acre parcels of land all over the place, the kiosks in the middle of the woods and metal plaques glued to the wall in memory of people passed or the new growth at the tops of the cliffs that just doesnt seem to be getting any bigger even though we live in a perfect climate for most trees to thrive.

So since we dropped nuclear bombs on Japan in the past would you guys be cool with firebombing them just a little? I mean others did something much worse in the past so that's free license for this current generation to just do whatever the hell they want to right?

You guys also understand that someday we WILL run out of rock to bolt. It's funny how Sportos don't even realize that they are they're own worst enemy. Just keep pissing off the old guys and see who's got more pull with the powers that be! What are you going to do when the land managers decide that ALL bolts are no bueno because they're sick of dealing with the mess? Learn to trad climb? Doubt it! It's not convenient and sterilized for your enjoyment and since Sportos are the laziest of pretty much any outdoor user group my guess is they'll all take up Chess or politics or something.

Reginald your argument is sound, past incursions do not pave way for slighter, newer ones. However its arguable that the impetus for the chopper in question was not likely environmental ethics; more likely hubris, a grudge, or naivety.

Some of us occasionally like to climb things that are not able to be protected with trad gear, and since top roping is like kissing your sister: There Will Be Bolts! I'm finished!

does anyone besides climbers really care about bolts in rock?

JoshCalvin wrote:and since top roping is like kissing your sister:

good one.

superkick wrote:does anyone besides climbers really care about bolts in rock?

Nobody but climbers care about anything to do with climbing but climbers.

My obtuse point earlier, which got deleted by a mystery over-sensitive admin was that if you showed the general public a video of someone placing a bolt whether on lead with a hand drill or with a hammer drill on rappel, and then showed them the Ivan video and asked which is more of an impact...?

The rules, 'ethics', good guys and bad guys are all in our own heads.

Am I the only one who doesn't abhor top-roping?

David Sahalie wrote: Nobody but climbers care about anything to do with climbing but climbers.

SWING and a miss...

mountainproject.com/v/park-…

Googles got tons more of this kind of thing if you care to stick your head out of the wet paper sack you're hiding in.

Ben Brotelho wrote:Am I the only one who doesn't abhor top-roping?

Since we're having a conversation within a conversation, I'm right there with you. But there are climbers whose idea of "fun" is feeling sketched out, so TR'ing does zilch for them if they can't shit their pants on lead. I've said it a few times here, but it's worth repeating ad nauseum - I don't climb for the fear factor rush. I just like movement on rock. That's just me. I'm probably the wacko.

Jake Jones wrote:... or sack up and move...

You don't even know how hard I'm working that! lol