Saving Oak Flat- does anyone care? -C&M throwdown-

Dale Evans wrote:ClimbandMine is correct here. In Block caving they gently coax out the underpinnings of the earth's surface leaving an undisturbed and paradise like surface. See images here: No brute force needed Can we send the 400 out of work miners to Rio Tinto's operation in Utah to deal with the 9000 acres of tailings that are totally improving the health and well being of the locals there?

You misquoted what I said, and you know it. That sort of behavior is exactly why Rio Tinto shouldn't give in to people like you. You accuse them of distortion then turn around and do it yourself.

BTW, I know where that mine is and it proves my point. The footprint of the mine is less than half the depth of Resolution, and the "crater" you see is less than half the diameter of the mine footprint underground.

Bingham has been in operation since 1906. Kennecott has been reclaiming tailings. There are over 100 years of tailings, most that were unregulated as they were put down prior to the laws and knowledge governing them. You want them to be able to teleport, too?

ClimbandMine wrote:BTW, I know where that mine is and it proves my point. The footprint of the mine is less than half the depth of Resolution, and the "crater" you see is less than half the diameter of the mine footprint underground.

What you don't mention and what is quite pertinent, is how far along in the mining process is the mine in question? The surface expression in that photo may be just the beginning of subsidence.

On the other hand Resolution has published cross section and oblique views of their subsidence zone and it is substantial. A depth of 850 feet and over a mile long. This takes it well below the bottom of Devil's canyon - and another orebody adjacent which they own and don't mention in any of their press releases.

These are the sort of things (and there are plenty) that should be presented to the public before public land is given to a corporation.

Additionally, RCM and its elected proponents, such as Congressman Gosar, continue to view and treat critics only as "opposition". Black and white thinking - no nuance with this crew. They play with words and withhold information as a matter of course. No wonder they have been unsuccessful.

BGBingham wrote: What you don't mention and what is quite pertinent, is how far along in the mining process is the mine in question? The surface expression in that photo may be just the beginning of subsidence. On the other hand Resolution has published cross section and oblique views of their subsidence zone and it is substantial. A depth of 850 feet and over a mile long. This takes it well below the bottom of Devil's canyon - and another orebody adjacent which they own and don't mention in any of their press releases. These are the sort of things (and there are plenty) that should be presented to the public before public land is given to a corporation. Additionally, RCM and its elected proponents, such as Congressman Gosar, continue to view and treat critics only as "opposition". Black and white thinking - no nuance with this crew. They play with words and withhold information as a matter of course. No wonder they have been unsuccessful.

I didn't say because I don't know for sure.

I do know the mine I worked at for 7 years was 40 years into its mine life and it broke vertical to surface from all its production areas.

ClimbandMine
I am uncertain what you feel I distorted. You took exception when someone said that Block Caving was a brute force operation.I feel that your attempt to imply that this practice is gentle, natural, and not destructive was argumenative and a distortion of fact. The land left is unusable for current and future user groups.
The depression I pictured in my post you say is small considering the volume of earth missing underneath.So in fact a much larger surface area is unusable than just the already depressed area?
So we should not strive to correct the shortcomings of the past? No need to teleport, we can work on these issues now. Recovery of tailings seem like a job that out of work miners would be well suited to.

Dale Evans wrote:ClimbandMine I am uncertain what you feel I distorted. You took exception when someone said that Block Caving was a brute force operation.I feel that your attempt to imply that this practice is gentle, natural, and not destructive was argumenative and a distortion of fact. The land left is unusable for current and future user groups. The depression I pictured in my post you say is small considering the volume of earth missing underneath.So in fact a much larger surface area is unusable than just the already depressed area? So we should not strive to correct the shortcomings of the past? No need to teleport, we can work on these issues now. Recovery of tailings seem like a job that out of work miners would be well suited to.

Gee, you wonder why I feel distorted?

Nowhere did I say that block caving was gentle (you obviously haven't stood next to a running drawpoint or active cave face) or destructive. I said natural forces (gravity / geology) were used. Open pit and other underground methods could be characterized as brute force. Block caving utilizes the fewest pounds of explosives per ton of ore extracted - I would characterize explosives per ton as a good metric of brute force, et tu?

I also didn't say the pictured depression is small relative to volume, I said it was smaller than the diameter of the extraction level (implying what the cave angle was).

And I mentioned that tailings at Kennecott were being worked on now, as far as I know. Tailings recovery and reprocessing is a separate issue that you didn't mention before and I don't know enough about that particular facility to comment on it.

After reading your replies I understand why you feel distorted and why no one else bothers to recognize your posts.

I apologize to everyone for feeding the Troll!

AZ Highways has published a new camping guidebook that features Oak Flat Campground as one of the "best campgrounds in AZ."

shoparizonahighways.com/ari…

AZ Highways guidebook with Oak Flat Campground

That's awesome BlueFrog!

So is this excerpt from the hearing last week:

"Kirkpatrick said her district was “hit hard by the recession” and could use an influx of jobs and tax revenue. But she said environmental impacts of mining will need to be addressed before the bill can go through. She is considering amendments to protect land and water in the area."

While Gosar on the other hand...:

"Gosar said there is no reason for delay and that opponents simply do not understand the facts.
“This is a good bill all the way through,” Gosar said. “I’m not here to compromise a bill just to get people to get on board.”
Gosar said he would be open to compromise, he said he has not seen any efforts by oppponents to alter their stance.
“We’re grasping at straws, basing not on facts but on hearsay,” he said."

Gosar and everyone else are all missing the (NEPA) facts.

Full NEPA *before* land swap.

Followup on House Bill -Voting record May 15 - 2013 :

Adopted and favorably reported this bill in committee was agreed upon by 23 yeas - 19 nays

H.R.687 moves forward and now must be approved on the House floor

I encourage all to write/call your local state representatives ASAP to insure a "No" vote prevails on H.R.687. Current contact info is listed here in this thread.

sincere thanks!

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kirra wrote: I encourage all to write/call your local state representatives ASAP to insure a "No" vote prevails on H.R.687. Current contact info is listed here in this thread. sincere thanks!

bump

reprint of flyer courtesy of Roy Chavez..

Oak Flat Religious Awareness & Educational Event -Friday, May 24, 2013
Oak Flat Campground—Big Oaks

Hosted by the San Carlos Apache Tribe
Assisted by Concerned Citizens & Retired Miners Coalition—Superior, AZ

OPEN TO THE PUBLIC

The program will begin at 10 am and continue throughout the day, ending with a sacred prayer from 6 to 9 pm. Tribal leaders/speakers, clergy, civil/human rights advocates, NAACP members, activists and others will be making presentations, listening to concerns and speaking on behalf of the religious and sacred significance of the Oak Flat campground and surrounding areas. The program is open to the public and will include a traditional lunch of acorn stew (at noon).

Presentations will address Native American legacy to the land, history of the area, hiking venues of significance (petroglyphs), medicinal plants/herbs, food sources and a general better understanding of Oak Flat, Gaan Canyon and the entire area as it relates to all people of the region.

Seating and shading may be limited, so you might want to bring your own, (including water and snacks).

For further info & contact: Roy C. Chavez, (520) 827-9133
email: rcchavez53@yahoo.com. (program schedule subject to change)

~ Come join us for this informative and educational program!!! ~

Testimony has been posted from the Hearing on H.R. 687

Council Member, Superior Town Council: Soyla “Kiki” Peralta - 6 pgs

Water & the Environment remain a concern for the Town:...

"We know, without a doubt, that subsidence will occur and that it will adversely affect our community. We don’t have any information regarding RCC’s proposed disposition of the massive amounts of tailings that will be produced and where they will reside. We are terrified that downstream pollution will affect the Town of Superior and everyone who depends upon the nearby aquifers for drinking water.

Our local water supplier recently imposed an additional “arsenic surcharge.” While The Magma Mine was operational, local residents were told that there was no pollution or effects on the water supply. Now, 20 plus years later, we find that there was—and continues to be—a price to pay for giving a foreign-owned mining company carte blanche because we trusted the mine explicitly.

We are also worried that a mine would dry up not only the Town of Superior’s water supply, but a portion of the water supply for the Phoenix metropolitan area. We also have good reason to believe that mining at Oak Flat will destroy the riparian habitat not only at Oak Flat, but the nearby Devil’s Canyon which is one of Arizona’s great undiscovered riparian treasures.

It is for these reasons and many more that we oppose the enactment of the Southeast Arizona Land Exchange and Conservation Act prior to proper NEPA reviews..."

--x--x----x--x----x--x----x--x----x--x----x--x----x--x----x--x--

Terry Rambler; Chairman, San Carlos Apache Tribe - 22 pgs

Mary Wagner; Associate Chief, U.S. Forest Service, Department of Agriculture - 5 pgs

Jennifer Krill; Executive Director, Earthworks - See pg 6-7

All documents & Testimony

Canadian Aboriginal group will not back down
against Rio Tinto's Iron Ore Company of Canada (IOC) -July 9, 2013

On March 18, 2013, the Innu First Nation of Uashat Mak Mani-Utenam along with another aboriginal group, the Innu First Nation of Matimekush-Lac John, filed a motion to obtain an injunction against IOC for the harm & damages estimated at CAD $900 million -article. IOC's majority shareholder is Rio Tinto.

.."While Rio Tinto is anxious to uphold its image as a model corporate citizen, boasting of its commitment to aboriginal peoples around the world, the Uashaunnuat and MLJ can attest that in their own experience these are nothing but empty words. IOC has undertaken all of its projects without the consent of the Uashaunnuat and MLJ, in violation of our rights. IOC and now Rio Tinto are the companies that have inflicted the most harm on the Uashaunnuat and MLJ and caused the most damage to our Nitassinan" said Vice-Chief Mike McKenzie of Uashat Mak Mani-Utenam..

.."In spite of the attempts we have made at reconciliation, IOC and Rio Tinto continue to act in an irresponsible and disrespectful manner. While we are not opposed to any and all mining development - it must not violate our rights, must respect our values, traditions and way of life, and must be environmentally sustainable. A balance must be achieved, but regrettably, IOC's practices are of a bygone era. This must stop," said Chief Réal McKenzie of Matimekush-Lac John..

..IOC is the most important producer of iron ore in Canada. Since beginning its massive mining operations in Nitassinan in 1954, the company has extracted and profited from the sale of nearly one million tonnes of ore. IOC is now looking towards an expansion project that will only result in increased harm to the Uashaunnuat and to MLJ, who have yet to receive any revenue, compensation, indemnity or royalties whatsoever from the company.."

---.---.---.---.---.---.---

continued from prior article-

IOC's operations on the traditional territory of Uashat Mak Mani-Utenam and their Innu brothers and sisters of Matimekush-Lac John have scarred the land as well as people's lives for more than 60 years now. The Innu are well past their breaking point and in addition the legal action, IOC can expect further acts of opposition in the coming months.

Meanwhile, Rio Tinto continues to seek to sell its majority stake in IOC. And while it is clear that Rio Tinto is looking to offload assets, the Innu First Nation of Uashat Mak Mani-Utenam cannot help but feel that Rio Tinto is also seeking to offload the "Innu problem."

"We simply wish to make clear that any purchaser of Rio Tinto's stake in IOC will run up against the same fierce opposition that is currently underway against IOC. The conflict will not end until the more than 60 years of injustice we have endured at the hands of IOC comes to an end," stated Mike McKenzie, Chief of the Innu First Nation of Uashat Mak Mani-Utenam.

"While Rio Tinto is looking to move on, our people are not going anywhere. We will still be here, occupying our traditional territory like we always have and unfortunately living with all the negative impacts IOC's projects have caused and continue to cause," added Chief McKenzie.

In fact, the Innu First Nation of Uashat Mak Mani-Utenam would like to take this opportunity to remind any potential investors that they will defend to the end the principle that any project on their traditional territory (covering much of northeastern Quebec and Labrador) requires their consent."

just sayin'..

via FB posted July 7 2013
"Saving OAK FLAT Campground" -Roy Chavez

..."Resolution Copper Co. is having trouble acquiring approximately 15 sq miles (Superior is 4 sq. mi.) of public land to locate their mine waste (1.5 billion tons) tailings dump site. For those of you that don't know they're looking at the area from Gonzales Pass to Florence Jct. however they've run in to some resistance, Queen Valley & Gold Canyon. The real problem for Superior, is that now they're seriously considering all this waste to be dumped in and around OUR community--from the existing Magma tailings waste site to out past Happy Camp/Hewitt Station. If this new info doesn't shake/wake you up, it should.

This project could now literally be the end of Superior as we know it (ie., Sonora, Barcelona & Ray). Some real serious consideration and thought must be addressed by all citizens of the U.S. regarding this mine project and the future of Superior and surrounding communities.

Since 1998, this project (per Rio Tinto) has been "non-negotiable". I say today (as I said then as Mayor) B.S. Why should the US Govt and those elected officials that support the mine project as is, bend over backwards for these foreign companies that propose this devious and destructive land legislation to take out Oak Flat, thereby resulting in the complete demise of the Town of Superior.

Superior is a very unique community in the mining region--our beautiful surroundings & landmarks, our history, our clean air & water, our proximity to the Valley, our potential for a diversified economy, our people, etc... It would be a shame to lose all this for the true benefit of foreign companies and their faceless shareholders. There needs to be a mutual understanding of all circumstances and issues regarding this project, both short and long term....Whether you agree or disagree, I invite you to contact me for further information and check out azminingreform.org and "Saving Oak Flat Campground" on facebook. Peace Out! "Si Se Puede"!!! ..."

San Carlos Apache Tribe has organized a petetion -plz forward to all comcerned many thanks!

PETITION TO OPPOSE THE SOUTHEAST LAND EXCHANGE AND CONSERVATION ACT

*April 2013, Letter to Congress: Ann Kirkpatrick, Paul Gosar
regarding H.R.687 by Terry Rambler, San Carlos Tribal Chairman

Can we loose Oak Flat without due process ?

Resolution Copper project could go forward without Congressional action on land exchange
Arizona Geology: May 2013

..."Resolution Copper is facing a raft of challenges in its goal to develop one of the world's largest copper mines outside Superior, Arizona, but may go ahead with the project even if the controversial federal land exchange is not approved by Congress.

Parent company Rio Tinto cut the project budget substantially last year as part of a global belt-tightening and lack of progress in the land exchange the company wants to ensure the can go forward. Resolution's other parent, BHP, just sold the Pinto Valley mine which had been the presumed site for the millsite and tailings. Public support in the Superior area is waning as a result of these actions so Resolution staff are out on the road telling their story and answering questions.

Vicky Peacey, senior manager of environmental and external affairs for Resolution provided an update to a crowd of about 150 yesterday in Tucson at the monthly Arizona Mining Alliance meeting. She explained that regardless of the land ownership status the mine proposal would have to do National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) studies on the full project and environmental impacts.

She also indicated the possibility that the project could go forward without the federal land exchange, although that is not their preferred route. Vicki noted that many mines are developed on federal lands but doing so would mean a large reduction in economic benefits to local and state governments..."

-----------------------

While RCM cuts it's budget from $200 million (2012) to $50 mil (2013) it still insists it needs this Land Exchange, has anything changed? -Rampdown News Release-

Is another dog & pony headed for Superior? -Community Meeting: Lessons on NEPA -July 26 2013

RCM commissioned Tetra Tech, Inc. a global environmental consulting firm providing strategic direction & oversight for NEPA for the mining industry and who also cleans up after Rio Tinto.

RCM continues to flat out lie about the applicability of NEPA to their project. There is really no kinder way to put it. The presentation by Patty McGrath of Tetra Tech was excellent, but pertained only to how NEPA is supposed to work--absent conveying our public land into private ownership before doing the environmental analysis. And, that is exactly what the RCM land exchange bill does--it gives them the land at Oak Flat before requiring a NEPA analysis. Once Oak Flat is private land, very little of NEPA applies to what RCM might want to do at that location, so most of NEPA is effectively bypassed by the legislation. This is a simple fact, no matter how much RCM continues to claim otherwise.

You don't need to take our word for this. The Secretary of Agriculture, Tom Vilsack has said exactly the same thing, as has the Deputy Chief of the Forest Service, in Congressional testimony.

thanks CCA

any idea as to why Ms.Peacey is stating that 'the project' could go forward w/o the land exchange? Would RCM attempt to mine around Oak Flat -is this possible?

Kirra, that is exactly what the QCC was told when I was a member; that RCM owned enough of the area outside the Oak Flat campground that they could mine those parcels instead.

I think it was a threat to push their way forward. That doesn't mean it isn't true, they would have to do all sorts of tricks to get around Oak Flat though.

I wonder how much land is required to be left intact for Oak Flat to remain geologically stable? -95 acres(?) + attachment to Forest Service land..

thanks Manny