To the person who took my red rope from pie shop S.Lake Tahoe!!!!

OP has yet to return. Trollio?

Reginald McChufferton wrote: bullshit trash shit garbage trash garbage trash trash! juvenile moronic lecture about ethics bullshit for christ's sake.

Nice rant, Reggie.

If you find a car with the keys in it, or an unlocked bike, do take em away on a ride?
If you come across a lost dog, do you try to find its owner?
If you find a lost wallet, do you return it to the owner?

Are you really that big of an asshole, or do you just play one on the Internet?

And yeah the OP has to be a troll--who the hell fixes ropes at Pie Shop?

dbclt wrote: No one is defending the theft. Regardless, "too lazy" is when your laziness creates an eyesore and an annoyance for people trying to climb the route you left your rope on.

Oh, now I see. It's ok to steal something from someone if (i) that person is more lazy than you think they should be and (ii) either (A) that degree of laziness creates what you think is an eyesore or (B) it's otherwise annoying.

How about a simpler rule: don't steal.

Read a little more carefully, champ...

Theft isn't okay. Neither is leaving an unnecessary obstruction on a climb.

Ethics and karma aside, if you leave shit lying around on public land you're accepting the risk that it may not be there the next day. Consider yourself lucky that it's taken this long before your rope has gone missing.

So I minitrax a lot. Probably as often as I climb on a rope with partners. I don't leave my gear fixed, mostly because the stuff I regularly trax is very safe and easy to access the top. But I have taken advantage of other people's fixed lines at Arch Rock, the Cookie, and other crags to run laps during the off season. Believe me, I'd rather have that stuff fixed than have people running around the top of those crags every day to fix/remove lines and in the process kicking shit off the top onto people at the base. If you've been to the top of either of these crags, you know what I'm talking about...lots of loose junk ready to take the ride.

I have rarely seen any lines left fixed that interfered with someone who wanted to lead the routes in question. The lines are typically pulled to the side and tied off out of the line of ascent.

I've taken things down that were left for too long (e.g. multiple weeks, at a crag not known for all-winter traxion action), where it's reasonable to assume they were abandoned. Even in those cases, I've left the gear with a note at the base of where it was fixed. But I've never stolen someone's gear and tried to justify it by saying it's an eyesore (like you being on the cliffside isn't an eyesore to someone who doesn't climb? like you don't expect to see climbing gear or ropes on a popular climbing cliff?"

Most of the excuses are BS. You ain't doing it to "clean up" or any other wankery you tell yourself to feed your ego and believe you are better than the person who left it. Simple solution : Ain't yours? Then leave it alone.

dbclt wrote:Read a little more carefully, champ... Theft isn't okay. Neither is leaving an unnecessary obstruction on a climb.

"Champ"--you fail to suggest a resolution. I do, and mine has the benefit of being very simple to apply, and does not purport to elevate a self-important notion of climbing "ethics" above "normal" ethics.

Too bad this wasn't posted on Supertopo.com. Would have over a 1000 replies by now.

IMO guy who took the rope is a douche, but guy who left the rope could have expected this outcome. Pie shop is not cookie/arch. People are not used to fixed lines out there.

I would have dropped it, coiled it and left it near the anchor/base if I wanted to do the route. I dont climb around fixed ropes when the owner is nowhere to be seen on established small crags

old ropes dont give me a semi, now if it was two cams and some lockers I may have taken them home and tried/waited a few days to find the owner before calling it booty. I wouldnt want some thief with absolutely no ethics whatsoever to come and steal it.

A lot has been said here, most of it repeating the same 2 opposite viewpoints. I think most people here have agreed whoever stole the rope was dead wrong, unacceptable, and most people defend at least taking it down. In the end, however, regardless of your viewpoint, what ethics you live by and expect others to live by, if you leave expensive stuff sitting out in the open, unattended....somebody will probably steal it. That's the reality if it.

You can debate ethics of it all day, its not going to get your stuff back or stop those people from stealing it in the future. I would never take something like a fixed rope, I wouldn't collect booty without trying to get it back, but not everyone will, if you choose to leave your stuff, your are expecting every person that passes your gear until you get back to live by the same code you do, seems unlikely. That's the risk you take.

PRRose wrote: "Champ"--you fail to suggest a resolution. I do, and mine has the benefit of being very simple to apply, and does not purport to elevate a self-important notion of climbing "ethics" above "normal" ethics.

"Normal" ethics also say don't litter. Pretty simple to apply as well.

The situation dictates the ethics, not some blanket statements one way or the other. But good luck being right and ropeless.

TWK wrote: Nice rant, Reggie. If you find a car with the keys in it, or an unlocked bike, do take em away on a ride? If you come across a lost dog, do you try to find its owner? If you find a lost wallet, do you return it to the owner? Are you really that big of an asshole, or do you just play one on the Internet? And yeah the OP has to be a troll--who the hell fixes ropes at Pie Shop?

WTF do any of those straw men arguments have to do with the issue that we are discussing?

Anyway, if I found your car, bike or dog that you had abandoned on a belay ledge I'd report you for littering and/or animal cruelty. If I found your wallet I'd call you or mail it back. WTF is so hard about this to understand. Finally, yes, I am that big of an asshole. Thanks for playing!

Colonel Mustard wrote: "Normal" ethics also say don't litter. Pretty simple to apply as well. The situation dictates the ethics, not some blanket statements one way or the other. But good luck being right and ropeless.

Ad hoc ethics aren't ethics.

PRRose wrote: Ad hoc ethics aren't ethics.

That's great, dear.

PRRose wrote: I'm so lazy that I sometimes leave my pack at the bottom of a route. Sometimes I'm so lazy I don't pack up my tent in the morning. Does that make my pack and tent fair game for you? How lazy is too lazy?

Do you leave your shit laying out overnight just so you don't have to trudge back up/down a tiny hill? Now you're just being stupid.

Paul-B wrote:A lot has been said here, most of it repeating the same 2 opposite viewpoints. I think most people here have agreed whoever stole the rope was dead wrong, unacceptable, and most people defend at least taking it down. In the end, however, regardless of your viewpoint, what ethics you live by and expect others to live by, if you leave expensive stuff sitting out in the open, unattended....somebody will probably steal it. That's the reality if it. You can debate ethics of it all day, its not going to get your stuff back or stop those people from stealing it in the future. I would never take something like a fixed rope, I wouldn't collect booty without trying to get it back, but not everyone will, if you choose to leave your stuff, your are expecting every person that passes your gear until you get back to live by the same code you do, seems unlikely. That's the risk you take.

Yes and yes.

"Different circumstances require different tactics which is why I believe that sweeping generalizations usually fall short of the main goal of the conversation."

This is true AHk but all you had to do was check the area out on MP to see it's no the case here (fixing lines that is). Too tired from packing up your tent for the day? Most people rag on this place but I like to head up and just scramble around by myself sometimes coming and going from the Bay Area. If I wanted to look at ropes hanging I'd stop by the gym where the op's lazy ass should drive himself.

It is great how you guys have continued to argue for four pages and the original poster hasn't even posted back once....

EricSchmidt wrote:It is great how you guys have continued to argue for four pages and the original poster hasn't even posted back once....

It's fun Schmitthead.

slk wrote: It's fun Schmitthead.

Hahaha really? Cant imagine how pathetic your life is then... I feel sorry for ya!

Colonel Mustard wrote: That's great, dear.

Thank you, sweetheart.