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3 C4 lobe severely bent

Kirk B. · · Boise, ID · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 60

As if they cared.

Andrew Mayer · · Driggs, ID · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 131
Kirk B. wrote:As if they cared.
Well hey, in my mind, if BD doesn't reply to him or politely says "we don't care" then that in itself would be worth learning.
Nate Ball · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 11,254

So I've been climbing for a few years, but back in the day when I was cutting my trad teeth at Trout Creek, I took this "big" fall on my #3 C4. I'm quite certain it was a solid placement, as all cracks at TC are even, parallel, symmetrical. Then again, I was a spankin' new trad climber at the time...

Obviously, I have continued to climb on it

Look at the distance between the silver cam lobes and the axle joint.

Another angle

The plot thickens.

NYClimber · · New York · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 85

I'd send it back to BD and let them inspect it.
One never knows. they could have had a bad run of alum alloy - tho I doubt it - and this could be the 'red flag' of an issue and/or a recall if that was found to be the case.

No so much of an issue of the $60 - because like the other folks have stated - it held, you're alive and well, and it did it's job. There are so many factors involved on how a piece of pro is subjected to stress - torgue, fall factor, type of belay, type and hardness or rock, shape of crack, etc.

but I'd let them take a look at it anyway. Might be worth the cost of shipping it back to them! perhaps they will feel generous and replace it or repair it for free. One never knows!

Nate Ball · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 11,254
Jake Jones wrote:Nate- I can't tell from looking at the pic, but is the axle holding the silver lobes bent? Or is this just that the lobes are slightly bent and causing them to flare? Story? Good pic.
No, the axle is not bent. One of the cam lobes is just torqued outward. Minor enough to not really be an issue.

Story: I fell from 3/4 of the way up "Usual Suspects" at TR, about 10-15 feet onto my #3.
Greg D · · Here · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 883
Dave Swink wrote: I am not at all qualified from an engineering perspective, but the cam damage and the description of the fall sounds a lot like the issue of Link cams breaking when side-loaded. If so, it comes down to protection only working optimally when placed with consideration of the fall line, movement during a fall, and whether the rock features will allow the cam to move in a fall.
Let's see. Link cams exploded and failed. This cam bent and held. To put C4's in the same category is silly.

Yes cams can rotate some in the direction of loading. But they also can rotate away from the direction of load from rope movement before the fall. At the instant of the fall the cam is subject to two vectors. One from the direction of the falling leader, one from the direction of the belayer or towards the piece below the top piece. The net resultant vector will be approximately mid way between these two vectors. But the cam only has a very brief window of time where it can rotate because the load is increasing on the lobes.

Climbing an angling crack guarantees a lateral loading of the cam.
TheBirdman Friedman · · Eldorado Springs, Colorado · Joined Jan 2010 · Points: 65

I miss bearbreeders constant use of emoticons.

Oh the REI policy. Just because you are allowed to do something, doesn't mean it's right. It also doesn't mean doing it doesn't make you a scumbag. I love the REI policy when ethical and moral people use it legitimately. It's morons like bear breeder that will force it to be revoked because they bring a used cam, blown out shoes, or a ten year old sleeping back for a full refund. You've got to be kidding thinking that's legitimate. You can make all the arguments you want in favor of what you do, but if you asked a 2 year old child whether that sounded fair, even they'd quickly and easily recognize it isn't. BD, REI, members of REI all have costs that are driven up by people like you who for some reason believe you are entitled to free gear the rest of your life based on a very customer friendly policy.

MTKirk · · Billings, MT · Joined Dec 2011 · Points: 245
Jon Zucco wrote: yep. sounds like they're beggin' to replace your cam for you, kipp.
And if they give you any grief be sure to go Taco on them!
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
TheBirdman wrote:I miss bearbreeders constant use of emoticons. Oh the REI policy. Just because you are allowed to do something, doesn't mean it's right. It also doesn't mean doing it doesn't make you a scumbag. I love the REI policy when ethical and moral people use it legitimately. It's morons like bear breeder that will force it to be revoked because they bring a used cam, blown out shoes, or a ten year old sleeping back for a full refund. You've got to be kidding thinking that's legitimate. You can make all the arguments you want in favor of what you do, but if you asked a 2 year old child whether that sounded fair, even they'd quickly and easily recognize it isn't. BD, REI, members of REI all have costs that are driven up by people like you who for some reason believe you are entitled to free gear the rest of your life based on a very customer friendly policy.
Dont shop at rei ... Its that simple ... Since yr "costs" are driven up

No shop there ... No pay more

Its that simple ;)
TheBirdman Friedman · · Eldorado Springs, Colorado · Joined Jan 2010 · Points: 65

I didn't say anything about me not liking REI's policy or me not wanting to shop there. I just said in my opinion, you're a morally pathetic person. I'm happy to pay the increased costs for legitimate users of the policy. The problem is it doesn't differentiate between decent people who respect and appreciate it and self centered abusers of the policy like you.

My point is you can make all the justifications you want. You have to look yourself in the mirror and realize that you're taking advantage of others. If you want to hide behind your argument that REI's policy entitles you to only have to buy a product once because you can bring it back anytime it wears out, you want a new one, or whatever reason, that's your prerogative. My prerogative is to put you in the same category as those who abuse any social service. Again, just because something is allowed or you can get away with it doesn't mean you should.

One last thing, if everyone was like you, the REI policy wouldn't exist. So be careful what you wish for when you tell other decent people who don't like your systemic abuse not to shop there because without them to foot the bill for your hustle and scam operation, you'd actually have to pay for your gear. Gasp!

Boissal . · · Small Lake, UT · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 1,541
Nate Ball wrote:So I've been climbing for a few years, but back in the day when I was cutting my trad teeth at Trout Creek, I took this "big" fall on my #3 C4. I'm quite certain it was a solid placement, as all cracks at TC are even, parallel, symmetrical. Then again, I was a spankin' new trad climber at the time... The plot thickens.
Can't tell if the lobes are really bent or just torqued out. There's quite a bit of play designed in the C4s and I can get a new piece to look like that by pushing the base of the silver lobes into the head of the cam and pulling on their outside.
I'm not saying it's not bent (the 3rd picture definitely makes it look like there is a bend at the base of the left silver lobe) but the first picture looks like a perfectly normal cam to me.

Send to BD, they'll probably send you a new one and torture yours a bit in the test lab.

And bearbreeder, will you either shut the fuck up and die, fluff out the 3 word argument you're trying to make or learn how to convey your point in a somewhat articulate and properly spelled way? Every post you've made makes me want to shit in your mouth and tape it shut.
EricSchmidt · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 0
TheBirdman wrote:I miss bearbreeders constant use of emoticons. Oh the REI policy. Just because you are allowed to do something, doesn't mean it's right. It also doesn't mean doing it doesn't make you a scumbag. I love the REI policy when ethical and moral people use it legitimately. It's morons like bear breeder that will force it to be revoked because they bring a used cam, blown out shoes, or a ten year old sleeping back for a full refund. You've got to be kidding thinking that's legitimate. You can make all the arguments you want in favor of what you do, but if you asked a 2 year old child whether that sounded fair, even they'd quickly and easily recognize it isn't. BD, REI, members of REI all have costs that are driven up by people like you who for some reason believe you are entitled to free gear the rest of your life based on a very customer friendly policy.
Give it a rest. The policy has been in place for at least 30 years... and people have been abusing it for at least 30 years. Yet it is still in place. Quit crying about what other people do and go tell your mommy that "it isnt fair". If REI has a problem with it they will change it.
Paul-B · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2011 · Points: 115
TheBirdman wrote:I didn't say anything about me not liking REI's policy or me not wanting to shop there.
Don't try reason, it won't work. He will just keep repeating the same nonsense. I think that he believes if he keeps saying it, it'll be true.

As far as the bent cam situation goes... BD cams hold lots and lots and lots of falls every day. It is unsurprising to me that there may be situations where a fall will damage a cam, even one that seems well placed. The ratio of damaged cams to number of falls they (BD cams) take seems to be vanishingly small. The fact that the fall torqued the cam in a weird enough way to bend it, and the cam still held is more impressive to me than the fact that occasionally one gets damaged after a fall. I would expect that. Clearly the 2nd poster still felt confident in the cam since he kept climbing on it.

I don't think BD owes anyone anything, as their cam did its job, it saved your ass. Pretty sure in the booklet each cam comes with it will say something to the effect of "inspect after each use/fall discard if it looks weird." Marvel at the fact that that spring loaded device you shoved in a crack saved your life, buy another one and go enjoy some more climbing.

(however, I don't think its a bad idea to at least contact BD, show them some pics and see if they are interested in checking out that cams, I'm sure they are always looking for ways to improve, but it would likely be hard to figure out how to as reproducing falls in the same manner as the original would be impossible)
Dave Swink · · Boulder, Co · Joined Jun 2007 · Points: 285
Greg D wrote: Let's see. Link cams exploded and failed. This cam bent and held. To put C4's in the same category is silly. Yes cams can rotate some in the direction of loading. But they also can rotate away from the direction of load from rope movement before the fall.
Greg, I meant to say that the Link cam fall scenario seemed similar to the fall that damaged the OP's C4. The BD cam obviously tolerated lateral loading (thanks for that phrase) better than Link cams. I reluctantly sold my Link cams a year ago because of the reports of their complete failure in less than optimal placements.

BD recommends placing a cam "in the direction of expected pull". I was suggesting that the damage to the OP's cam should not be viewed as a failure of the product, but rather damage that resulted from a less-than-optimal placement that force lateral loading on the lobes. I think it kicks ass that the BD cam still held in a fall that it was not designed for.

Does that fix the silly part? :-)
Paul-B · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2011 · Points: 115
EricSchmidt wrote: Give it a rest. The policy has been in place for at least 30 years... and people have been abusing it for at least 30 years. Yet it is still in place. Quit crying about what other people do and go tell your mommy that "it isnt fair". If REI has a problem with it they will change it.
What a surprise. This "moran" jumped in fray. I think this more or less proves that bearbreeder is a moron, as ES here is an advocate for all things stupid and argumentative.
Tony B · · Around Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 24,665
EricSchmidt wrote: If REI has a problem with it they will change it.
They say the same about our government...
Forthright · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2011 · Points: 110

REI gets less than 2% of their sales returned. They're aren't worried about it cutting into the bottom line.

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
TheBirdman wrote:I didn't say anything about me not liking REI's policy or me not wanting to shop there. I just said in my opinion, you're a morally pathetic person. I'm happy to pay the increased costs for legitimate users of the policy. The problem is it doesn't differentiate between decent people who respect and appreciate it and self centered abusers of the policy like you. My point is you can make all the justifications you want. You have to look yourself in the mirror and realize that you're taking advantage of others. If you want to hide behind your argument that REI's policy entitles you to only have to buy a product once because you can bring it back anytime it wears out, you want a new one, or whatever reason, that's your prerogative. My prerogative is to put you in the same category as those who abuse any social service. Again, just because something is allowed or you can get away with it doesn't mean you should. One last thing, if everyone was like you, the REI policy wouldn't exist. So be careful what you wish for when you tell other decent people who don't like your systemic abuse not to shop there because without them to foot the bill for your hustle and scam operation, you'd actually have to pay for your gear. Gasp!
Rei is a "social service" now ???

I wasnt aware that you TAX DOLLARS went to REI ... You should write your congressman about it rather than whine on MP

Dont shop there if u feel u are paying higher prices ... Or WRITE them as a member

Its that simple ;)
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
Paul-B wrote: What a surprise. This "moran" jumped in fray. I think this more or less proves that bearbreeder is a moron, as ES here is an advocate for all things stupid and argumentative.
Im not the one making comparisons to "abusing women" on this thread

Gotta go climb ... Its sunny today

You should try that sometime ;)
Nick Zmyewski · · Newark, DE · Joined Jun 2011 · Points: 250

Great troll bearbreeder. Stop feeding him everyone!

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Trad Climbing
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