Petzl Darwins do not share the same toe wire bails as other models! BEWARE!

I ran into a recent experience with my Petzl Datwin front ends changing when attempting to change out my Sarken front ends to the Dartwin front ends.

Per Petzl - "All of our crampons share the same rear end crampon assembly's as each other - so yes - you can buy the Dartwin front ends and change yours out."

Well - didn't work! Upon arrival I found the Dartwins to have a diff shaped front toe wire bail that wouldn't work on my new Koflach Degre's at all (2012/2013 model back in production again from Koflach).

Just thought someone might want to know this in case they were thinking of this as I was! I had to return them, much to my disappointment - as I wasn't going to take Vice Grips to them and alter them in an effort to make them fit properly and risk ruining them, voiding the warranty, nor risking a poor fit and/or pop off when climbing!

Not sure why the Darwin's would have a diff shaped tow bail honestly - unless it has something to do with the 'shape' of the crampon front end configuration - I dunno.

I thought that was kind of odd - I figured all their wire toe bails would be of the same shape these days to fit a vast majority of mountaineering boots - per them - but I guess not.

Mine are the same.

Wow I wish mine were.... I don't know... had them both side by side by and my Darwin's didn't fit anywhere near my Sarkens....not sure why....the front tie bails were much narrower when I compared them side by side!
??????

Upload some pics.

Maybe you got a ski boot bail?

Hi,
I can't upload pics of them now as I had to return them to Moosejaw for a refund!

Their online ad said NOTHING about them offering or having a ski binding toe bail. In fact, the Dartwin bails were very close to my Sarkens but just lacked enuff width to get them far enuff into the front of my boot to get enuff bite!

Like I said - maybe I could have bent them and reshaped them with some Vice Grip pliers but I really didn't think I had enuff of metal to work with honestly even IF I did that to clear the soles!

I was/am REALLY disappointed as I wanted Dartwins badly. Not sure what went wrong here honestly. Had someone sold Petzl wire toe bails as replacement parts I may have even purchased a pair of new bails and tried to change them out and see if THAT made any difference....I dunno.....this one just left me dumbfounded honestly...

Like I said - I REALLY didn't wanna go messing with the factory shape and integrity of the stock toe wire bails for safety's sake and risk of damaging them or screwing them up on a brand new pair of Dartwins and then being 'stuck with them' and unable to sell them, return them or even USE them!

PS I found my Dartwins to be a little 'flatter' in design than the Sarkens - being that the Sarkens had a bit of a 'curve' to the shape of the front ends. Perhaps THAT had something to do with this - I just dunno. The Dartwins seemed NOT to 'curve' to the shape of my Koflach's soles like my Sarkens do.

I just am confused honestly....never thought that any of this would be an issue at all!

Ray - Can you do me a favor please?

I'm interested in know if when measured in width if the Dartwin wire bail IS in-fact the exact same width as the Sarken's width!

Maybe the paid I got as messed up for some reason? I dunno.

All I know was the Sarken's wire bail easily slipped right into the welt/grooves in the front of my Koflach's but the Darwin's wouldn't even go deep enuff into the grooves at all!

WTH?

I have a e-mail into Petzl Customer Service now concerning this problem that I experienced and am interested in what they have to say concerning it.
I will post info here and what they tell me when I hear back from them...

NYClimber wrote:I have a e-mail into Petzl Customer Service now concerning this problem that I experienced and am interested in what they have to say concerning it. I will post info here and what they tell me when I hear back from them...

OK,
Just spoke to a Petzl 'after sales technical rep' - and he said "All of their crampons use the same wire front toe bails as each other - so he's not sure what may have gone wrong...

As he said "All boots have slight differences and our crampons are designed to fit most all of the boots out there today" and suggested that I try another pair again and this time place the front toe wire bail in the forward most hole - being in the rearward holes the front points are pretty darn long still - which I have experienced even with my Sarken's! I could easily get away with using the rearward front toe bail adjustment holes as I have more than enuff front points exposed using the rearward holes.

So I am going to try them again and see...

Also - as I suspected - he did not support trying to bend nor mess with the wires with pliers not only due to voiding their warranty but also due to possible weakening of the wires by bending them and/or risk breaking or cracking them.

So - I'll give them another shot esp since Moosejaw is great at returns and they are currently on sale for $20.00 off the normal $137 price!

Maybe your Sarken bails had previously been worked on to alter their profile.

I really don't know honestly! Even tho I purchased them brand new and I did not see any tool markings on them or being altered or reworked - but hey - who knows!

Ray,
I am trying another pair of Datwin's now.
Is there a LEFT or a RIGHT to these front ends and which is which?

I have both Sarken's and Datwin bails compared. Both look the same. However, for some reason unknown to me, the front of my Koflach's slip right into the toe bail or the Sarken's w/o any issue. Not so with the Dartwin's - and I can't for the life of me figure out WHY this would BE!

I'm stumped honestly on this one!!!!

Thanks!

????

Ray, I am trying another pair of Datwin's now. Is there a LEFT or a RIGHT to these front ends and which is which?

Found 2 things:

1) My Dartwin front toe wire bails were 1/8" narrow in their width in bend than my Sarken's! Fixed! Now they fit fine!

2) Is the front end in this pic the LEFT or RIGHT side?

?

There is a right and left, I can't remember which is which. I switched them around until I got the best fit. I have mine set up with the bars curving in so you can look at my picture and see which way I have them. Don't be afraid to swap the fronts left to right or flip the bars over. Fit is the most important thing.

OK Ray thanks!

When I looked at them I was like - "OK - would I want the inside front point to be longer than the outside point, or vice verse?"

I will play around with them and look for the best fit once I attach the bars to the front ends today and try them out both ways for the best fit.

The Darwin's actually look VERY much alike the Sarken's I have to admit - as far as front point shape, configuration, length, etc.
The major diff I am seeing is: a) The color difference (LOL) and b) The configuration of the first set of points behind the front points that is more 'raked forward' then the Sarken's are.