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BScallout · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 0

Jesus you are such a self righteous prick Killis. Lame avatard. And are you drunk? We are both lame asses for posting on MP on Friday night at 9pm. Where the fuck is Eva?

Mark Limage · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 25

There's a New Bolting Sheriff in town and his name is Killis Diller. Sheriff Diller received an email, probably from his deputy, "that the retrobolted anchors beside good trees have been scheduled for demolition." That'll surely straighten out those disrespectful, rap-bolters. Bravo.

This post is just like the idiotic posts in the past about the Group Therapy bolts and the Cat in the Hat bolt. Except, this time, Sheriff Diller is being all secretive about where these bolts are and where the "violation" (in his eyes...and tiny little mind) occurred. What is you want Sheriff Diller? Our approval? a louder voice in the climbing community? If those bolts are so offensive, why don't you just skip the Mtn Project drivel and go chop them. Don't tell anybody. Keep your pie-hole shut. Who cares? I'll bet 99% of all Red Rock climbers could give a shit if there are new bolts on some rap line or if you went and chopped them.

Oh, and RGOLD from NY, how is that one of the the "three different issues here" is:
"3. Bolting easy scrambles for rappel descents." ? In the Sheriff's original post, there is no language indicating that this descent is an "easy scramble." How did you extrapolate that? Or is it just a convenient manipulation of facts to support your Ken Nichols attitude about bolts? And the other "issue" you 'think could be at play here"...guide services bolting easy scrambles for their clients...yeah, that's probably what's going on here; everybody knows that Red Rock guides love to spend all their time and money drilling up 3rd class scrambles for commercial purposes while jeopardizing their employer's permits. Brilliant deduction.

Oh my, whoever will enforce the Red Rock bolting ethics? Don't ya' all worry, Sheriff Diller has got the "demolition crew" all queued up and ready to right this horrible wrong.

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

Mobley, I'm not sure I understand your point. I've done DOWT and happily rapped off the bolts. I didn't mean to suggest that bolts have no place on back country trad routes, and I think the first ascensionist ought to have a lot of leeway (but not absolutely free rein) in how they choose to equip a trad route. I'll also grant that in some cases the creation of a bolted rap route might be ecologically preferable to using fragile natural features.

On the other hand, I think that trad should be trad and sport should be sport, and trad means, among other things, that in various circumstances, climbing skill rather than mechanical protection devices is and ought to be the climber's protection, because that's the way nature made the terrain and so that's what climbers have to work with.

And I find it obnoxious that self-appointed guardians of public safety go into the back country and bolt up descents that have been done without drilled protection, this without any kind of communal discussion ahead of time. Then the bolts become a fait accompli and we hear all this stuff about don't chop 'em and start bolt wars, when it is the person who put them in without any kind of local consensus who fired the first shot.

The real question, and Killis essentially asked it, is how does the community restrain individuals who feel entitled to carve up the back country to meet their own personal standards of safety, without seeking any kind of consensus about what is appropriate?

Mark wrote: In the Sheriff's original post, there is no language indicating that this descent is an "easy scramble." How did you extrapolate that?,

From where he said "...though much of the descent is often scrambled." Sorry to have appended "easy" to that, which is in any case redundant.

Mark wrote: Or is it just a convenient manipulation of facts to support your Ken Nichols attitude about bolts?

As the quote above shows, I didn't manipulate anything. And if you think my attitude towards bolts even remotely resembles Ken Nichols, then you are doubly clueless, both about me and about Ken Nichols.

Mark wrote: ...everybody knows that Red Rock guides love to spend all their time and money drilling up 3rd class scrambles for commercial purposes while jeopardizing their employer's permits. Brilliant deduction.

First of all, my comments are about things going on around the country and in Europe, not just in Red Rock. The thread is titled "Bolted Descents," not "Red Rock Bolted Descents." Second of all, there is no question that guides have added bolts to climbs and descents in the U.S. in order to make the routes commercially feasible for their clients. Whether this has happened in Red Rock I do not know, since as you've noticed I'm from NY. I've heard whispers about Birdland, for instance, but someone with real local knowledge would have to address that.

In view of all this, suggesting the possibliity of guide action is not a brilliant deduction, or any kind of deduction for that matter, aince there are no facts available to make a deduction from, but rather simply the mention of a scenario that is not inconceivable and has without question already occurred.

J. Thompson · · denver, co · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 1,425

Actually, Killis, you named names when you said this:

Killis Howard wrote:You know, I think I'm going to hook up Branch Whitney with my old drill and a few hundred bolts and feet of fixing line. That way, all the scrambling hikes in Red Rock can be made into Compressor Route style via ferratas, because bolts anywhere are good, and slings anywhere are bad.
josh
1Eric Rhicard · · Tucson · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 10,101

Jesus Killis this is such an old discussion.

As said by someone else I think a few more bolts in a place like Vegas is no big deal. The hiking trails created by ten climbers if they were the only people climbing in Vegas might have more impact on the environment than all the bolts that are there now. Of course all the bolts encourage more visitation and more impact. If you don't want to see 5006 bolts when last week there were 5000 bolts then one bolt is too many. If you don't like looking at 6 more then all must go.

I really don't care if someone bolts descent routes (if they do a good job). I hate looking at old tat so it will not bother me when it is all gone and there are no slings on a tree or block again. Bolting belays on trad routes doesn't really bother me either. Just where I ended up after 35 years of continuous climbing.

J. Thompson · · denver, co · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 1,425
Killis Howard wrote: Clear?
As mud.

I might not be a local. But I know alot more about whats going on out there then your average non local. Most of my knowledge comes from a number of locals I call friends.

I know exactly whats going on with Branch. He has, in fact, been gracious enough (on more than one occasion) to personally share his extensive knowledge of the Red Rock backcountry with me. Making my own half cocked adventures easier. I know that some of the things he has done has caused some controversy.
But. I wonder. If it is as you say and he's never (to your knowledge) placed a bolt...why would you bring his name (even jokingly) into this discussion?
Isn't that how rumors get started?
Seems there are plenty of rumors going around currently. Plenty of them seem to have your name associated.
Rumors can be an ugly thing. Don't you think?

josh
J. Thompson · · denver, co · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 1,425
Killis Howard wrote:Josh, if the explanation that I was joking is already over your head, nothing else coming out of my mouth is likely to help you acheive enlightenment.
Then why open your mouth again?
I've never thought anything coming out of your mouth would enlighten anyone.

josh
Robert Fielding · · Thousand Oaks, CA · Joined May 2011 · Points: 195

WOoooOooooO! Limage says some funny shit on this forum.
Sheriff Diller, you are popular in the mountain project community.

If this forum was a prison, i'm pretty sure you'd be getting f*c*ed in the ass every night! LOL. Good thing this is just fairy tail land.

I'm going to have to agree with Killis on this one. As a climber, I enjoy the fact of being a minimalist. Climbing with the basic essentials and enjoying adventure.

If there is a tree, "that can hold a bus full of nuns on LSD," then I don't see any reason why bolts should be placed there. And just to set a precedent of that fact, them bitches should be removed.

If this happened in Tuolumne on Stately Pleasure Dome, where a tree has been used for rappel for 20+ years, and someone put up a bolted rappel. What do you think would happen? Gone the next day.

But hey, VEGAS is a place of its own with crazy locals, unset standards/ethics, and a bizzarre nature of "who gives a fuck attitude."

I kind of like the "fuck it" attitude. In fact, now that I have it. I'm kind of in the mood to retrobolt routes I think are scary, add bolted descents where ever I please, and piss on anything that gets in my way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Robert Fielding · · Thousand Oaks, CA · Joined May 2011 · Points: 195

All that typing made me sweaty.

I think i'm going to take off my shirt.

dorseyec · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2009 · Points: 5
Killis Howard wrote: Anyone see a problem with that?
Youre going to work up quite a sweat. Better have another bro on hand to remove your shirt and give ya the horns!
the Oracle · · Delphi · Joined May 2011 · Points: 30
all day every day

y'all haven't met a strawman argument you didn't like have ya?
Doug Foust · · Oroville, WA · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 165

Like I stated earlier, I think bolts make better sense. In all honesty, I really don't give a crap what I'm rapping off of as long as it's safe.

I don't understand why people are so opinionated about this. There is a big difference between a protection bolt on a climb and placing natural gear. The natural gear is only there when someone is climbing the pitch. I get this and prefer natural gear whenever possible.

There is no difference between rapping off bolts or rapping off slings. You still thread your rope though the rings, rap, then pull your rope. Visually, you are looking at slings or you are looking at bolts. The slings aren't removed after you rap, they are still there. Maybe it makes you feel special that you didn't damage the rock by drilling the hole to install the bolt....um...get over yourself.

Brian in SLC · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Oct 2003 · Points: 21,711
J. Thompson wrote:I prefer the bolts. Gobs of multi colored slings on trees is a much bigger eye sore than 2 bolts, with chains, even if they aren't camo'ed to match the rock. When a descent gets to the point that it is being used alot it only makes sense to make it be the least impact possible. I think that means bolted anchors.
Concur.
Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0

Killis man you know how to make friends. Also how to keep me entertained all day with these threads. I don't know the situation but if there were no bolts and now there are bolts, chop the suckers.
Just think about it, after you climb your epic 5.whatever you can even get stuck on top because some tool chopped the rap anchors. Then you can tweet off the top about your daring exploits while you wait for sar or whatever to come give you a chopper ride down.

Liberty · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2013 · Points: 25
Killing In The Name Of wrote:Most of my friends take off their shirts at the drop of a hat. Some of 'em even have better boobs than Handsome Rob (sorry, dude, you're still bringin' back sexy). Worthwhile interaction does find itself in scarce supply around these parts, on occasion. Why should that surprise any of us? I've met chemists and physicists climbing, also a whole lot of theiving shitbirds, proto-tards, has-beens, never-was's, topropers, rap-bolters, retro and would-be retrobolters, and a couple of trustafarians here and there, as well as the usual complement of bipolar agenda-of-rage guides. A local veteran once told me "you've got a decent chance when you meet a fireman that they're an ok human being. Climbers? It's the 99th percentile if they shower and brush their teeth once a week, much less give a shit about anyone but themselves and what they can stuff into their pockets as they pilfer through area after area..." I'm paraphrasing, but he had a point. Don't expect morals from strippers or integrity from itinerant dirtbags or real estate sellers. Just to get a final dig in, there.
Jesus was a dirtbag...well sorta, but with your obviously limited life experience you will not be able to put two and two together, alas...
Liberty · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2013 · Points: 25
Killing In The Name Of wrote:Most of my friends take off their shirts at the drop of a hat. Some of 'em even have better boobs than Handsome Rob (sorry, dude, you're still bringin' back sexy). Worthwhile interaction does find itself in scarce supply around these parts, on occasion. Why should that surprise any of us? I've met chemists and physicists climbing, also a whole lot of theiving shitbirds, proto-tards, has-beens, never-was's, topropers, rap-bolters, retro and would-be retrobolters, and a couple of trustafarians here and there, as well as the usual complement of bipolar agenda-of-rage guides. A local veteran once told me "you've got a decent chance when you meet a fireman that they're an ok human being. Climbers? It's the 99th percentile if they shower and brush their teeth once a week, much less give a shit about anyone but themselves and what they can stuff into their pockets as they pilfer through area after area..." I'm paraphrasing, but he had a point. Don't expect morals from strippers or integrity from itinerant dirtbags or real estate sellers. Just to get a final dig in, there.
Jesus was a dirtbag...well sorta, but with your obviously limited life experience you will not be able to put two and two together, alas...
M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911

here is a compromise- bolt the trees! no tat, no damage to the rock, what could be better?

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Nevada
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