First ice tools, advice needed

To the O.P... I've got a set of current model Carbon Fiber BD Cobras for sale (actually selling them for my boss). They have maybe a dozen days on them.

He's looking for 450 shipped for the set.

Email yangalala@gmail.com

That Aztar setup is a pretty good deal for a first set, particularly if you have smallish hands.

Wow, thanks for all the info.
I'm heading back up to the Mammoth area in the next week or so. I'll stop in the climbing shops up there and swing as many of the tools around as I can get my hands on.
I'm leaning towards something a more vertical ice biased since I'll probably be climbing that more often than alpine, at least for the time being.

Leo, I found the Steve House vid. Super awesome, that guy is a monster climber. Thanks

Fusion 2.

To rule them all...

RobC2 wrote:Fusion 2. To rule them all...

Owner of current fusions. There is almost nothing the fusions do that nomics don't do at least as well. Most notably, almost all will prefer the balance of the nomic over the fusion for swinging. The only real thing I like about the fusions over the nomics is that the picks swap in and out in the field much more easily.

If the trango raptors are truly as good as the hype (as in nearly the same as the nomics) and come in at $125 cheaper PER TOOL, that might be my #1 choice.

Here's something Nomics certainly do better than F2s:

Which would be most inconvenient when you are doing this:



Drool photo by Rob Fullerton.

Only Petzl picks I have ever seen bent (none broken mind you) have been climbing with them indoors.

Pictures of broken Nomics are hard to come by. Broken or bent picks from Petzl are as well.

Wish the same could be said for BD.

Not my gear shown here. I originally supported BD, much to my own embarrassment now. I was mistaken to do so. I think the resulting failures and time has proven my original opinions wrong.

"none of these picks had more than 20 days on them and most had a lot less. I switched to Quarks last fall and the peace of mind was almost imeadiate.. I did keep the Vipers and rotate one in as a 3rd tool or let guests use them. I no longer carry a spare pick with me. Don't need it with the quarks."

Not soloing but I'd rather not break anything here either.

Not sure about the Fusion 2 but the original Fusion sucked on pure ice. The swing was funky and they liked to bounce. The new tools by Camp do look really good, but I'm not 100% sold on having the lightest tool in my hand. Light, at times, has to sacrifice something. Usually durability, or comfort... if I were competing or something then maybe. But for hacking around local climbs not so much. That's just my NSHO.

RobC2 wrote:Here's something Nomics certainly do better than F2s: Which would be most inconvenient when you are doing this: Drool photo by Rob Fullerton.

Hey, you're Rob from the Ouray Ice Fest 2012? I recognized the pants.

Keep looking. DMM makes some great stuff but ice tools aren't them. There are lots of great used tools on the market, most have been mentioned up-thread.

I find broken BD picks interesting. My wife and regular partner both use the BD Reactors. While my wife doesn't climb harder than 3+ my buddy has drytooled lots with his Reactors and hasn't had any problems with the picks. I will have to give him some sh*t for his choice in tools!

Rory..That reminds me that the BD Reactors may be a good tool for you. I've used them on grade 2. My buddy has done M7 with them so you should like them for everything.

Just solo..There's something we agree on. The original orange Fusions sucked!!!!

Just Solo wrote:Not sure about the Fusion 2 but the original Fusion sucked on pure ice. NSHO.

Depends on the climber...

RobC2 wrote: Depends on the climber...

Didn't say they didn't get used, but there is a reason the orange ones lasted only a couple of seasons!

shoo wrote: If the trango raptors are truly as good as the hype (as in nearly the same as the nomics) and come in at $125 cheaper PER TOOL, that might be my #1 choice.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the Raptors are very Fusion-like, dare I say even first generation Fusion, with a very steep pick angle that is really good for hooking, but tends to bounce off the ice rather than penetrate it. It is certainly easy to make a few mods to fix this, and for $170/tool you might enjoy having a pair in your quiver. PM me if you want to hear more about the mods to improve the ice performance (yes, at the expense of hooking performance).

Gunkiemike wrote: Sorry to burst your bubble, but the Raptors are very Fusion-like, dare I say even first generation Fusion, with a very steep pick angle that is really good for hooking, but tends to bounce off the ice rather than penetrate it. It is certainly easy to make a few mods to fix this, and for $170/tool you might enjoy having a pair in your quiver. PM me if you want to hear more about the mods to improve the ice performance (yes, at the expense of hooking performance).

I have it straight from trango that they will have an ice specific pick out next season that will be the 2-3 degree reduction in angle thats needed, so hopefully the Raptor will be much better for ice next season. and the new pick design will fit on the existing tools.

Gunkiemike wrote: Sorry to burst your bubble, but the Raptors are very Fusion-like, dare I say even first generation Fusion

I've climbed extensivly on both generations of the Fusion, the newest. Ergo and a bunch on the Nomic. And most recently on the Trango Raptor.

Mike has suggested a 1.5" less drop on the Raptor's pick. Nice if you want a typical swing and less security of typical reverse curved tool.
Only a couple of degree less drop (not inches) would make the Raptor much easier to swing for the unititiated. But still a tool a beginner could easily adapt to and climb hard with. And it will easy repalce any of the better tools at half the price of their retail.

Mike says here:

iceclimbingforums.com/showt…-(and-second)-impressions&p=67943#post67943

"In the meantime if anyone sees me out there swinging my Raptors, ask to see the picks. I have gone WAY beyond what I described above, and they (Raptor) are now totally AWESOME."

My point to all this is if you want to make blanket statements in public about how different tools compare in use and for a specific use helps to actually have climbed with all the tools you are comparing in print. Makes no sense when reviews are not being fair to everyone involved. Al lthe tools have a place. None radically better than any other when you compare the selection of "best".

I and my partner spent a lot of time soloing on WI4 terrain before commenting on how the Raptor would work on easy (WI4) or harder (WI5) terrain. Nomic? Raptor? Ergo? Fusion II? Pretty much in that order for ease of use on moderate ground. Biggest difference IMO is in the grip sizes. Not in the pick performance or how well they climb.

coldthistle.blogspot.com/20…

Well Dane, we clearly disagree on a couple points, and that's OK. I am focusing in all this discussion on how well the Raptors perform on ice, and I was explicitly clear in the NEice.com post you linked to that I haven't used the Fusion-I. I'm only saying that MY issue with the Raptor parallels what many folks reported for that BD tool when it came out (and are continuing to say to a lesser degree about the F-II) and how some minor tweaks to both the tool and my use of it improved the situation. I believe you are familiar with the issue I'm describing; you yourself called the Fusion-II a "terrible ice tool" (in your backcountry.com review).

As for what is the optimum angle for ice performance vs. drytooling, that 1.5" number was a seat-of-the-pants guess. A few degrees may be fine. I have adjusted the raptor picks upwards by about an inch and ice penetration is vastly improved FOR ME. I don't know how many degrees that represents. Have you tried them upwards by a few degrees? Did it get them more Nomic-like?

Plus, there seems to be an issue with many of the Raptor picks that were not manufactured to spec. I will be returning mine for a proper pair ASAP. This may also account for some of our different perceptions.

Again, I used the original Fusions for few days (Haffner Creek, Icefields Pkwy) and they suck! I got my hands on a pair of BD Cobras after that, Sweet! Nomics.. sweet! Finally I gave the Cobras to my wife and used the Fusions so we could get up Grotto Falls and.. they still sucked. I hooked my way up Hers in Grotto Canyon so, OK the Fusions hooked well but what tool doesn't?

Maybe it's my footwork.. Haha

Mike, keep me updated on how things go with Trango. I know my experience with them was great, they really went the extra mile to make things right. Beyond that I can say with confidence you'll see a night and day difference between the picks. What I noticed was the 3mm consistently doing 1st to 3rd swing sticks while the 4mm always seemed to be 10 plus and just horrible... It did better after a tuning but still not great.