Bad anchors

No one ever said that making anchors extra safe was a bad thing. Canyoneering and mountaineering are two completely different practices that are both awesome. The problem is that it's like comparing apples and oranges. They are both good but the objectives and ethics are wildly different.

Austin - thanks for that great comparison. I had never really thought about it like that but that makes alot of sense in my mind.

A bit OT, but there is something worth noting about bad anchors. While I dont have a serious issue with R/X routes and bad anchors on unpopular routes in major climbing areas, I do have somewhat of an issue with them at smaller crags. The problem is that when someone is killed, for whatever reason, and the landowner does not have any form of legal protection, he/she/it may be well inclined to ban climbing. One person gets killed from a crappy 1/4" bolt and everyone looses their right to climb at the crag.

When that happens it is a complete utter bitch to reopen the area. It takes years, sometimes over five years, to get things worked out. In some cases, the area is never reopened. Additionally, it takes thousands of hours of hard "95% of the work is done by 5% of the people"-type work to get the area reopened. All because of one injury or death. Thus, in areas where closures are a concern, I think the community as a whole has a duty to eliminate dangerous routes and bad hardware. Access is more important than bolting ethics or ego.

Bad anchor

baa-dah-bump

20 kN wrote:A bit OT, but there is something worth noting about bad anchors. While I dont have a serious issue with R/X routes and bad anchors on unpopular routes in major climbing areas, I do have somewhat of an issue with them at smaller crags. The problem is that when someone is killed, for whatever reason, and the landowner does not have any form of legal protection, he/she/it may be well inclined to ban climbing. Throughout America, closures are enacted weekly. One person gets killed from a crappy 1/4" bolt and everyone looses their right to climb at the crag. When that happens it is A COMPLETE UTTER BITCH to reopen the area. It takes YEARS, sometimes over five years, to get things worked out. In some cases, the area is never reopened. Additionally, it takes thousands of hours of hard "95% of the work is done by 5% of the people"-type work to get the area reopened. All because of one injury or death. Thus, in areas where closures are a concern, I think the community as a whole has a duty to eliminate dangerous routes and bad hardware. Access is more important than bolting ethics or ego.

Honestly one of the reasons I think more places should consider bolted anchors.

Rob Davis wrote: Honestly one of the reasons I think more places should consider bolted anchors.

Ah, yes. The bolted anchor theory! Now we got us a discussion (that's been had many times). One theory suggests that if you add bolted anchors you will make it safer for everyone. Another theory suggests that if you add bolted anchors you will attract more inexperienced climbers. More inexperienced climbers may lead to more accidents. One example would be the tat anchor that existed for decades on Over the Hill in Eldo. Then, it got changed to bolts. Only a few weeks later someone with the "gym or sport mindset" climbed the route, clipped the anchor, got lowered, and got dropped because their rope was too short.

20 kN wrote: Throughout America, closures are enacted weekly. One person gets killed from a crappy 1/4" bolt and everyone looses their right to climb at the crag.

Since this happens weekly, can you give several examples? You should have ten in 2013 alone according to your numbers. I'd love to see the ones specifically related to 1/4" bolts, but other examples would be ok too.

Greg D wrote: Since this happens weekly, can you give several examples? You should have ten in 2013 alone according to your numbers. I'd love to see the ones specifically related to 1/4" bolts, but other examples would be ok too.

Call the Access Fund. Those guys work around the clock for a reason.

John Wilder wrote: Wow, you got 5% of the people to help you? Lucky bastard. If we get 1% here, we'd have 10x the help we normally get. But I do agree about the duty to fix hardware. At the moment, we have three people in my area willing to replace bolts. Three. And how many bad bolts are there in Red Rock? Your guess is as good as mine, unfortunately.

You're correct, it is more like <1%.

20 kN wrote: Call the Access Fund. Those guys work around the clock for a reason.

Give us at least a few examples. Come on, if you are going to make such bogus claims at least back it up or STFU for a change!

Canyoneering anchor

Who wants to be first to go down into the dark scary hole rappelling off of 50 year old twigs? Ya but is the webbing solid?

Brian C. wrote:I saw this one 2 days ago...

I don't like the way that double fisherman's is tied.

Canyoneering anchors are hands down some of the worst pieces of shitte I have ever seen.

Stich wrote:Canyoneering anchors are hands down some of the worst pieces of shitte I have ever seen.

I recommend that every canyoneer carry a Jake Day for emergency anchoring purposes. 275 pounds of Wyoming-bred anchoring awesomeness.

Austin Baird wrote: I recommend that every canyoneer carry a Jake Day for emergency anchoring purposes. 275 pounds of Wyoming-bred anchoring awesomeness.

+1 for a good ole fashioned meat anchor. If every group would feed him as they go by this setup can last for years.

I see that we have a canyoneering specialist here. I'd love to hear his canyoneering resume since he is telling everyone in the world all about it.

question #1- how old are you?
#2- how long have you been canyoneering?
please tell us

TRmasta wrote:I see that we have a canyoneering specialist here. I'd love to hear his canyoneering resume since he is telling everyone in the world all about it. question #1- how old are you? #2- how long have you been canyoneering? please tell us

Right? What an obnoxious dick this canyoneering specialist is. He's posted TWO pictures AND a brief explanation of canyoneering anchoring ethics to try and add to the discussion. I can barely see for all the spray this douchenozzle is throwing around.

20 kN wrote:Throughout America, closures are enacted weekly.

Not to rain on the hyperbole parade, but that's a pretty ridiculous statement.

Austin Baird wrote: Right? What an obnoxious dick this canyoneering specialist is. He's posted TWO pictures AND a brief explanation of canyoneering anchoring ethics to try and add to the discussion. I can barely see for all the spray this douchenozzle is throwing around.

spray is not invisible Austin no matter what GOD you worship