Are you a strength/power person or an endurance person?

reboot wrote:I went hangdogging my way up a power endurance 13+ today instead of increasing post count of my own thread. And I'm pretty tired about arguing strength vs technique (my opinion remain the same).

Reboot,

I think that there are actually some nuggets of good information in your posts. Sh*t, I even agree with some (though not all) of what you have to say. That said, its sort of hard to read your posts with an open mind because you seem to feel the need to make snide comments while talking down to people. Obviously you can do whatever you want (it is the interwebs after all), but unless you want people to think that you are a dick, then perhaps tone it down a bit, eh?

Have a good one.

J. Albers wrote: its sort of hard to read your posts with an open mind because you seem to feel the need to make snide comments while talking down to people.

I admit I was deliberately picking on your comments & I apologize. I don't have anything against you or anything. I guess becoming a little more anonymous makes it easier to be dickish.

I see where you are coming from: you see guys who should be climbing close to your level but are not because they have shit for techniques. I see rascals that can bulldoze over problems that I have to carefully plan & execute (although there are plenty of 5.14/15 climbers in my gym with excellent techniques well suited to their strength/weaknesses). As reasonably intelligent people, we all pride ourselves on being able to do something in the most efficient manner. But at the end of the day, I care less about whether I can climb something w/ the best technique than I do about being able to free my dream route(s), and I think I have a better chance focusing a lot more on strength than technique training (although change in strength invariably changes the optimal technique a bit).

reboot wrote: I admit I was deliberately picking on your comments & I apologize.

No worries man; likewise, I apologize if my posts were violating MP Guideline numero uno.

reboot wrote: But at the end of the day, I care less about whether I can climb something w/ the best technique than I do about being able to free my dream route(s), and I think I have a better chance focusing a lot more on strength than technique training (although change in strength invariably changes the optimal technique a bit).

This is an interesting point and I think it may explain a bit of the difference between where we each come from. For me, I think one of the most important parts of climbing is how the movement feels when I am doing it. I get a huge amount of value out of the feeling I get when I am floating up a route using very little power. I dunno, I'm not into yoga, but I suspect it is a similar feeling. That's not to say that I don't get something out of those focused "kiai" moments, just that I really enjoy the floating sensation when I am "effortless".

For example, last year I was working a project that was super technical (right down my alley). The route involved a lot very subtle moves...half-pad thumb presses, tips gastons, and foot smears that I couldn't hold (much less move off of) unless my core was dialed tight. In short, when I sent it I felt like I was exerting very little strength because I had the technical aspects of the moves dialed in pretty well. Surprisingly, while I was excited about sending, I was a bit disappointed about a few portions of the route where some of my footwork wasn't as laser precise as I wanted. F*cking OCD, huh?

The above situation is probably why I tend toward more technical climbing and I have a hard time getting psyched on some other forms of climbing. For example, when I lived in CA, I would regular go out to Jailhouse because that is where a bunch of my buddies climbed. I just could never get into it because the important technique there is kneebaring (and scumming) and this just doesn't subscribe to my internal idea of aesthetic climbing. As a result, I never invested a lot of time there despite the fact that it was easier (in a physical sense) for me to send hard routes there versus vertical granite (I actually onsight way harder on overhanging enduro stuff than I do on technical granite, despite the fact that I spend most of my time and effort on the latter).

Anyway, perhaps I would be well served to take the advice that your original post mentioned, that is, spend more time working stuff that I don't like doing (i.e. strength training). Chances are it would pay off. Honestly though, I just have a hard time getting psyched on bouldering and finger board workouts.

Back when I was quasi-serious about climbing and trying to get better (I no longer am trying to get better, just trying to have fun in my own way), I discovered that my weakness was my power. In my quest for climbing my first 5.12, I tried 5.12 after 5.12 after 5.12....and yes I got better, but very very slowly.

I then got tired of making so little progress so slowly, so I went to bouldering. At the time, I could only boulder like V2. So I exclusively trained on bouldering until I could boulder V3 (didn't take very long at all). I then tried a 5.12 and what do you know, I flashed the first one I tried. (SPPRRRAAAAYYYYYY)

My point is, I have no idea what I am now.

Evan Sanders wrote: My point is, I have no idea what I am now.

Oh dear god, what have I become?

Hang in there, bitch. Momentary "strength" ain't worth shit.
Will you live to see the sunrise?
Hang in there is my mantra.

When I train (maybe 1x/yr for 12 weeks) I follow a discipline of Endurance -> Strength -> Power. This has worked for me personally to accomplish my goal of enjoying the sport. I believe Alex Huber was a pioneer in training specifically for a particular route. If you have a specific route in mind, then I recommend training for that route. If in general you want to just get better than I recommend doing it all.

Wait.
This is a "Sport"????

Here's a Rock and Ice article that provides some tips for improving one's climbing technique.

In response to the original question:

I ran cross country in high school and I sucked. I think I'm built more for power (6'3", broad shoulders).

In response to the Technique vs. Strength argument:

Both, duh. Focusing only on one will only allow you to progress so far. Quit trying to act like one is vastly superior to the other. That said, if a beginner climber asked me what they should work on, I'd definitely tell them to focus on technique. This is because strength can be gained (relatively) quickly, while technique is something you just have to practice at over and over and over and over.

Fin the Human wrote:strength can be gained (relatively) quickly, while technique is something you just have to practice at over and over and over and over.

IMO this is completely backwards. Strength does not come quickly, particularly if you are reasonably trained/developed and not Joe N00b. Tuning up for a specific rock type/angle/style, by contrast, comes very quickly (to me, anyway). We're talking days to weeks for making big gains in specific technique(s) vs. months to years for building strength, power, and AE.

Will S wrote: IMO this is completely backwards. Strength does not come quickly, particularly if you are reasonably trained/developed and not Joe N00b. Tuning up for a specific rock type/angle/style, by contrast, comes very quickly (to me, anyway). We're talking days to weeks for making big gains in specific technique(s) vs. months to years for building strength, power, and AE.

I see it differently.

Assuming you are decently fit to begin with, you can become fairly "ripped" in a matter of months. Go do some push ups and pull-ups and you're there.

Technique, on the other hand, can take years to really develop. Understanding all the nuances of efficient movement, and when to use certain moves over others is not something new climbers learn in a matter of days or weeks.

Fin the Human wrote: Assuming you are decently fit to begin with, you can become fairly "ripped" in a matter of months. Go do some push ups and pull-ups and you're there.

Taylor Ogden, I don't understand what you're getting at. Nor why you need a different username to say it.

"Ripped" has almost nothing to do with strength. Plenty of tubby assed powerlifters throw around WAY more weight than ripped bodybuilders.

We'll just have to disagree on this one.

Apparently technique and overall climbing experience are the same thing to a lot of people.

I agree with you Will. Strength takes way more dedication. Technique is something you learn and once you got it you got it. Experience on applying your technique in a multitude of situations can take a long time, but it is something that you can continuously build on at any time. Strength requires long term commitment that if you don't consistently try to improve upon, will wither away faster than it takes to gain.

Will S wrote: Taylor Ogden, I don't understand what you're getting at. Nor why you need a different username to say it. "Ripped" has almost nothing to do with strength. Plenty of tubby assed powerlifters throw around WAY more weight than ripped bodybuilders. We'll just have to disagree on this one.

Obviously we're talking about different types of strength. Ultimately though, I think you've forgotten the context of my original statement. I said that if a beginner climber asked me what they should work on, I'd tell them to work on technique, as building up the baseline level of raw strength required to climb at harder grades is fairly simple. I wasn't talking about PE or AE or grip strength. Are you telling me you'd advise a beginner climber to hit the campus board and work on power endurance? I don't think that's what you're saying- I think we're debating something that isn't really a debate. Something just got lost in translation.

As far as my username is concerned- it just seemed like everybody is using a silly alias these days, and I didn't want to be left out. Also, if you were *really* paying attention, you'd have noticed that I changed my name over a month ago.

some interesting posts, unfortunately i'm short on time, but a couple quick comments:

aerilli - the measurement system you describe sounds pretty sweet. i think one hiccup though is that it likely can't measure excessive 'wasted' body tension. for example, the amount of energy that you waste due to clenching muscles that aren't being used. you could have the exact same body position, as well as the same loads on each of the holds, yet you could have a bunch of muscles straining harder than they need to. this is a large part of technique - not using the muscles any more than absolutely necessary.

i had thought somebody posted something about great climbers never continuing when their technique begins to suffer (looking back through the thread i can't find it though). obviously i disagree with this. when you are pushing yourself, there are going to be times when your technique is deteriorating but you will have to grind it out for the send. without this experience you will never reach your potential or come close.

i also don't agree with static climbing as the ultimate goal. there are times when i think climbing fairly static is important - in particular in runout situations on poor qualily rock. however, a lot of times it is a lot more efficient to climb with more of a dynamic component. this has really been difficult for me to learn, and i am a beginner in this area. i have spent such a long time climbing in a controlled static manner that it is really, really hard to make the leap (pun intended). i have learned that even something as simple as using the campus board has a lot of technique involved. any tool that you can add to your arsenal is worth having, in my opinion.

technique training is tough to do. i agree with others who have basically said that technique training in the gym is a waste of time. what i learned during 5 years of using the SCC method is that gym climbing ingrains habits in me (maybe different for others) that carry over really poorly to climbing outside. these days i really try to limit the amount of indoor climbing i do, for this reason. to really effectively train technique, you need to do it at your climbing area. unfortunately, it takes a lot of time, which if you have very limited time like i do, makes it not really have good value. i try to focus on maybe 2 things during my warmups, but i have long since given up on doing the little flagging/pivoting/etc drills in the SCC book.

is technique easier to develop than strength? when you are a brand new climber, either one of these things can develop quickly. i imagine to some extent most people develop both things at a somewhat similar rate. some people might develop one thing a lot more quickly due to some sort of pre-disposition. i don't think you can keep either one of them without some maintenance though. my first few routes of desert season are always a bit rusty. it comes back quickly, but it is always a bit off. same for slabs, steep stuff, etc.

anyway, i guess that is the fun in all of it. if it was easy, it would be called knitting....

hi dana. i've described this in detail in other threads, but here is a basic summary.

1) most gyms that i have climbed at, including my current gym, just don't have any route setters that can set good routes in the 12a to 12d range on the vertical/slightly overhanging walls. the route setters may be level such and such setters, yada yada yada, but they just don't set good vertical routes that have any sort of application to the nearby outdoor routes. the main problem at my gym is that they have an obsession with slopers, and in particular, sloping pinches. despite what some authors may say, the open grip has little to no translation to gripping small holds.

also, stepping on beach balls the entire way up a route doesn't really build the small hold footwork that is required for most of the routes in my areas. in 25 years i have climbed a lot of routes in this grade range in my areas, and i can honestly say that i don't remember a single route where a sloping pinch was a deal breaker. i know that they will say that the small holds cause more injuries - but i counter that NOT training on small holds is more likely to cause injury when climbing real routes outside. during the 5 years that i tried the SCC program (bouldering and climbing in the gym, movement drills) there are 2 things that are stand out in my data - i had more injuries (shoulders, finger pullies), and my outdoor climbing basically had an inverse correlation with my indoor climbing (particularly the bouldering - it is almost perfectly 180 degrees out of phase).

2) the route setters all seem to be either midgets, or forced to set routes for 8 year olds. if you are tall, you will either be sitting on your heels nearly every move, or you will be at full extended reach on every move. given that 90% of the holds they use are slopers, it is always really, really awkward to stay low on the holds. it is pretty tedious.

the last 2 years i have gone back to focusing on strength training and limiting my gym climbing. the results were staggering. there were days that i would onsight 2 or 3 routes at grades that used to be a real struggle to redpoint. i consistently onsighted 3 letter grades harder than my best onsight during the SCC years. my best onsight was as high as my best RP during the SCC years. also, i was redpointing 2 letter grades harder than my best during the SCC years. i was having a great time. i didn't even do that much redpointing - i was having so much success onsighting that i kind of got hooked on it. all of my RP's were 3 or 4 tries or less. it felt great to see success come out of my hard work.

don't get me wrong, i still do some gym climbing - mostly for PE and stanina, as well as just to do some small amounts of movement practice. but my focus has shifted to focusing on strength training. so far this year, my results are looking even better than the previous 2 years.

Slim, I actually think Movement sets reasonable routes in the 5.12 range, even on the vertical/slightly overhanging walls. It's funny you think the route setters are midgets, cause the only short route setter is Jon Cardwell & his routes are quite reachy (for someone his height) & extremely powerful. BRC, however, have mostly short route setters.

I'm not sure gyms need to imitate outside climbing as much as providing an environment to train specific areas of climbing. That said, it's no secret Movement tries to imitate Rifle routes than Shelf routes. I can think of several reasons for the sloper/pinch galore:
1) finger injury prevention: I seriously cannot have a 2-3 hr gym session on crimps & I can always supplement w finger board/system board
2) comp climbing: say what you want, but open hand grip has increasingly been the focus of comp route-setting.
3) body position training: one of the difficulty w/ sloper is the subtle body position required to optimize the hold (because it goes from Ok to really bad w/ a very small change), whereas you can play a bit looser w/ crimps and just crimp harder.
4) the "when all you have is a hammer syndrome": I don't climb much at all @ shelf, but elsewhere on the front range, there are actually plenty of sloper/pinch or otherwise open hand grip type moves on non-trivial sections of routes (Public Solitude, crux of T.G.V., most of the hard climbing on Musta Been High, the harder moves before the crux on Choose Life (it's a power endurance route, so those moves need to feel easy), etc). Rifle may as well be in the front range & it's a sloper/pinch (& kneebar) galore. And the thing is, the better you are at it, the more these types of holds present itself: on one of my project (Beethoven's 5th) last year, I saw someone hanging out w/ open hand @ the crux while I was desperately trying to milk a bad undercling/finger jam. Hell, on my first creek trip this season, I realized I can modify my rattlely tips jam a bit by squeezing the shit out the other side of the crack w/ my thumb. This is after I realized from the previous year that w/ increased open hand strength, I can pseudo hand jam much thinner crack than before.

Interesting to compare the setting styles of the different gyms. I've been climbing at the DBC for much of the winter, and have liked the setting style there. It seems like their typical problem consists of locking off 1-pad incuts on a 45, with short but hard moves; this is a pretty nice gym style for translating to strength on rock (i.e. lock-off strength on crimps). In this setting style, difficulty comes from reeling in a smallish hold, no from generating big dynamic moves between good holds. Also have been using the system baord a bit there, which is set up to basically emphasize the same style (1 pad incuts, on a 45).

I recently went to the Spot for the first time in a while; I'm actually planning to spend a bit more time there this spring specifically because of their setting style. I'm planning an extended trip to Rifle in May, and the idea is that the Spot style (slopers, compression, body power) should translate well to there. As reboot said, it is sloper/pinch galore. (Any of you experts want to comment on this plan?). Plus, with longer problems and a good treadwall, it should be a better place to get some PE work in. Somewhat ironic, really; since the Spot style is exactly the opposite of what you want for training on rock for most areas (the DBC style is way better for that), but getting ready for Rifle seems like an exception to this rule. Or I may be totally wrong there.

As reboot mentioned, though,these gyms seem to be getting to the point where they are designed mostly to train one for more gym (comp) climbing. While upstairs at the Spot, I looked at their system board (the steeper one). Even on the system board, all of the holds were slopey pinches- hilarious. Useful for comps, I guess, but not great for most Front Range climbing.

Check this article out

It highlights the need for both. I generally consider myself a power person by nature but gravitate towards the aesthetics of sustained sport climbs on tall, vertical to slightly over hanging walls. Because of that, I'd been tailoring my training routines to incorporate more endurance related activities in hopes that it will counter my fast-twitch instincts and build a more balanced skill set: running, cycling, and only doing sport in the gym.

Lately though, after plateauing around 11+ for a season or two, and finding myself getting completely burnt after pulling the crux on longer climbs, I've re-introduced more bouldering, hard power/strength training, hangboard routines, and even weight lifting. I feel like I have more endurance as a result; I've seen huge gains in my onsight and project level in sport recently. I am able to push through hard, anaerobic crux sequences with enough steam left over to finish the moderate aerobic/endurance based head walls that follow.