Unofficial Guiding in National Parks? Your Thoughts?

I know several Parks across the country do not allow any professional guiding within the park boundaries (Zion for example), and the Tetons only let J.H. and Exum guides do work in the park. I am just wondering what peoples thoughts are on the subject of guiding people in parks like these, without the park knowing? Is it generally looked at as OK, as long as you don't set up a company, or is it highly discouraged? Is there any potential legal repercussions? I'm just curious.

Thanks

One of the possible consequences, is having permits revoked where you are licensed to guide (if you already have a legit guiding service).

You risk being turned in by authorized guide services and if you have an accident on a pirate guided trip, the Park Service will almost certainly find out.

I think the NPS turns a blind eye to guiding in Yosemite NP without permits, but I don't know about the other parks.

Danger-Russ Gordon wrote:I know several Parks across the country do not allow any professional guiding within the park boundaries (Zion for example), and the Tetons only let J.H. and Exum guides do work in the park. I am just wondering what peoples thoughts are on the subject of guiding people in parks like these, without the park knowing? Is it generally looked at as OK, as long as you don't set up a company, or is it highly discouraged? Is there any potential legal repercussions? I'm just curious. Thanks

You can google search "NPS illegal guiding" and find out who's been caught recently.

If folks are guiding where it either isn't permitted, or, where the permits are taken by existing guide services, and, they're guiding on popular routes, it does raise a few eyebrows to be sure. And, yeah, when there's a trainwreck then it becomes more of a dealio.

As a recreational user who competes for the same space at times, I've asked guides who they work for. Not that I'd turn in an illegal guide, but, I might let them know they're at risk.

I'm sure its done on the DL all the time. Saavy folks pull it off. Usually their clients are pretty saavy too.

I guess I've discouraged it, and, would continue to do so.

While we were in Tuolomne last fall, 4 rangers showed up and hauled a guide away for guiding without permits. They did not look to happy with what was going on, pretty sure you can lose permits and/or certs.

if its groups then that can be a problem...individuals then usually fine

Hey Brian in SLC,

Thanks, I'll check that!

It seems like a pretty bad idea for the general climbing community. Many other parks, private areas, etc have much easier to get through requirements for concessions and permits. With these options, the risk to reward ratio doesnt seem worth it to me. Especially if you consider the possible risk to public access.

Check this article from a few weeks ago. Ive read a few articles about busts for illegal guiding, but they usually go hand in hand with hunting/poaching.

outdoornews.com/January-201…

I know of a person who got caught guiding a group in death valley national park this year. The person charged $49 per person to take a group of people canyoneering. Rangers found out and the person was warned. The person still took the group out.

That person got caught, and was fined for guiding without a permit, not paying entrance fee, not paying campground fee, and one other charge which I forget.

The rangers are serious and if they find out you will be fined. Not to mention the liability involved when you are taking others out.

Hey darin,

Thanks for the link to that article, that intense for sure, for hunting the authorities really don't mess around, and I can only assume its the same for climbing.

If it is an individual, then the risk is almost zero. How could the NPS possibly find out that a single climber hired a single guide? The only way they could find out is if one member of the party admitted to it, in which case s/he is a moron. Group events, on the other hand, are a different story. It is slightly harder to defend a story that someone is "just friends" with another eight people and s/he wanted to take them out on a trip. But still, as long as everyone exercises their legal right to refuse questioning without legal presence, the NPS would have a very hard time building a case without the presence of a third-party witness.

Take note:

NPS staff do read these forums. Whatever you think about the practice of illegal guiding, you probably ought not to talk about it here.

Thanks for all the input guys, I guess part of the reason I am asking is i am moving to zion this summer as a canyoneering guide (for a resort just outside the park) and I know some friends have expressed interest in me guiding them on several climbs and canyons and offered to pay me. It would be just one or two clients at the most. I am still sorting through if I think its morally ok to accept money for guiding them in a situation like this, I know I would not get caught but thats not really the issue im worried about, the more I think about it the more I am leaning towards not accepting money, maybe I'll let them buy me dinner and call it good, any thoughts on my situation?

Just go out as a group of friends. Have them buy gas and d dinner

rock_fencer wrote:Just go out as a group of friends. Have them buy gas and d dinner

+1

I was going to ask what the difference is between 'guiding' a couple of people for a nominal fee/beer and 'going climbing' with a couple of new friends who have never been climbing in exchange for some cash/beer to cover some costs.

As long as no one gets hurt, not a good idea....if someone gets hurt, and then you try and claim it on your company's insurance, good luck. One rule in most insurance policies for recreation business is that you are operating legally. If you are not operating legally (your poached guiding/permit) and something happens, they will not pay. You would then be stuck with the whole tab, plus possible jail time and a hefty fine.

The big reason I'm against unofficial guiding is that when its on public land, the land owner, namely me and the rest of the country, are not getting a cut for the use of public lands. If I have to pay taxes out of my income to support the national park system, you can be damn sure that I want people who are making money from the NPS to do the same. Considering that the NPS is already on a shoestring budget, and entry fees keep going up, I think pirate guiding (that is, for money, rather than beer, gas, or food) in any area administered by the NPS is indefensible.

+1 Brian from Eugene. Well said.

Are you seriously asking on a public forum, presumably under your real name, if you should illegally guide in Zion National Park?

Brian Scoggins wrote:The big reason I'm against unofficial guiding is that when its on public land, the land owner, namely me and the rest of the country, are not getting a cut for the use of public lands. If I have to pay taxes out of my income to support the national park system, you can be damn sure that I want people who are making money from the NPS to do the same.

How is that the guide's fault? I think in most cases where pirate guiding exists, it is because the government has a monopoly on the guiding industry forcing consumers into a small tunnel, or they just dont allow guiding at all. If the government expanded guiding to allow any professional to guide, pirate guiding would not as much of an issue.

Andy Novak wrote:Are you seriously asking on a public forum, presumably under your real name, if you should illegally guide in Zion National Park?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DV1U9axV9iY

Just Don't do it!!!!!