Alpine climbing rope systems

Just got back from the Trinity Alps and the Sierras from winter climbs. I'm still trying to dial in the "best" case scenario for what ropes to use. Most of my climbs have pitches less than 60 meters and involve both rock and to a lesser extent ice. I've tried a Edelweiss 9.4 60m rope and 7mm tag line and Sterling 8.4 45m half ropes used as twins. The 9.4 & tag line system is freaking heavy! But rope drag is way better. The 8.4 half ropes are way light, but snag everything, and rope drag sucks. Also after 2 seasons of moderate use the 8.4 half's are just about wore out. Maybe that's the price of climbing hard.

I feel like I've done my research, but am not super satisfied with my current systems. Any suggestions on a better rope system?

So if I read it right, you have tried:
1) single rope with tag line system (9.4 60m + 7mm)
2) 8.4 45m Half ropes as twins (bad rope drag)

Have you tried using the half rope as double rope setup instead of twins? then you have the light weight rope and the better rope drag option, eh?

That's where I went immediatly: doubles. less rope drag, same long rappels.

My buddy has a 9.1 (pretty positive its 9.1) beal joker that's rated single and doubles. We will be taking an 8mm petzl double and coupling it with the 9.1. If we want a single line we have it, we get the longest reasonable rapps still plus we then have doubles if we want.

I like a 9.2-9.5 paired with a 5-5.5m tagline (technora)that can either be trailed or fits nicely in a pack carried by the second. Gives you the option of hauling a pack on hard pitches or if you might have to bail and rap the route you have that option. Plus its easier to belay and easier rope management that can save some energy on long routes. If its a long route that most be rapped for the decent, then double ropes are nice rather than having to deal with using the thin rope as a pull cord, which can suck on slabby terrain.

I have a couple of Jokers and have used them some. But been using the Beal 7.7 Ice Twins for 4 or 5 seasons. Gone through one set now, bought and sold a 2nd (no fault of the rope) and on now on my third pair. Very common combo in the Alps for everything from big faces to short technical routes. Not seen anything better to date.

But like the option if required to use a Joker with a 7.7 as twins (or may be even as a double even if not recomended) if I thought the route needed it.

Thanks for the responses. Dane, gotta ask, do you recommend a particular length for a set of twins?

Allan Campbell wrote:. The 8.4 half ropes are way light, but snag everything, and rope drag sucks.

Double ropes should have less rope drag than a single, so maybe you are crossing your ropes a lot? Half ropes are a great way to go, I have Edelweiss 60m double ropes. They have been holding up very well for the last 5 years including 4 trips up the diamond and a couple trips to Patagonia.

Allan Campbell wrote:Thanks for the responses. Dane, gotta ask, do you recommend a particular length for a set of twins?

At least in the states, twins generally get used more around sharp bits and are more likely to get the chop close to an end. I'd buy 70m for the inevitable trim.

with the advent of 8mm and smaller half ropes ... theres no reason to buy twin ropes IMO

many 8mm half ropes (and ALL mammut half ropes) can be used as twins

as to what to use ... thats your call ...

i generally use 8mm halfs which can be used as twins if the need arises ... and in an emergency you can use it as a single to lead back up if something gets stuck

now for longer rock multi with hard pitches where falls are every possible ill use a < 9.5mm paired with my 8mm half as a rap line ... the single rope is easier to handle and deal with, and wears less if yr gonna fall ... the 8mm half again you can lead up if your rope gets stuck ... it aint light, but itll handles falls better IMO

Especially if you already have a good lead rope, it is MUCH CHEAPER to buy a tag line. I got mine for $70. Save your money for strippers.

The tag line is the best option if you only need to rappel if epicing and can't just walk off like you had planned. If you plan to do rappels, it's nice to have twin / half ropes.

Canyoneers block belays all the time & pull tag lines regularly - it's all about setting it up properly before you rappel.

I have a 60m lead rope and a 65m tag line so I can cut the end off to make an anchor if need be. But most of the time the rope just stays in the follower pack as we walk off the summit. It's really a pain to keep my 6mil cordelette untangled and pulling properly - use the pack like a rope bag and snakepile between every single belay. Never throw a tagline like you would usually do with a lead line.

The downside to a tagline being used for epics is what happens when you need to bail & the rope gets stuck? Whoops

Mammut Genesis half ropes. One red, one blue. Booyah!

I love my Tendon/Metolius 7.8 twin/half ropes. Only 38 grams/meter, can be used as twins or halfs. Great hand, good water resistance, durable.

Ben Brotelho wrote:Mammut Genesis half ropes. One red, one blue. Booyah!

Fire and ice! Just like the Trojan condoms only no mess afterwards! We haven't really had a problem yet.

If you decide to go half/twin, you'd have a hard time doing better than the Metolius 7.8mm Monster 60m or the Tendon Master in 70m. I wish Metolius would make theirs in 70m length, but the Tendons are very nearly as good. Had lots of positive comments on the Tendons from folks I've climbed with.

Otherwise, one of the new single cords at 9mm +/- 1mm and a retrieval cord (the technora is nice but spendy). Even a 6 or 7mm cord plus the 9mm single is lighter than my Metolius Monsters IIRC - which surprised the heck out of me when I did the actual weigh-in.

Kevin Craig wrote:I wish Metolius would make theirs in 70m length, but the Tendons are very nearly as good.

The Tendons and the Metolius are the same rope. They aren't "very nearly as good" They are the same. Metolius distributes them for Tendon in the US.

Allan Campbell wrote:Thanks for the responses. Dane, gotta ask, do you recommend a particular length for a set of twins?

I have partners who prefer 70m ropes. But never ever seen a place we needed one over 60m. Useless weight imo. But I own 3 of them. That seldom get used just for that reason. Too fookin heavy to carry or lead with. 70m pitches turn out to be a really heavy rope imo.

Ropes are a system. Do a 150' free hanging rappel on a lwt single 9mm and a 5mm tag line and you'll figure that out quickly enough. And it isn't all that humorous. Any mismatched ropes aren't all that fun rappeling actually. A 7mm/9mm match up isn't isn't much better imo. And you'll want to make sure your decending/belay device is up to snuff on skinny ropes. The BD Guide wasn't on two big rappels I did a couple of times recently. The Midi bridge and off the Pencil on Polar Circus. From experience I can tell you the latest Petzl version works a LOT better on the skinnier ropes.

actual rope weights?

60m lines:
Beal Joker 7# 8oz
Beal Ice Twin 5# 0oz
5mm tag 2#10oz

As you can see lots of tasty talk on ropes but in the end a set of twins at 10# 0oz is better than a a Joker and a skinny tag at 10# 2oz. Easier to split up and pack the twins, much easier to rap on if required. Easy enough to haul on one if that is needed.

Given a choice I'd rather just use a 50m (or a 60m) lwt single like a Joker if I am brave (I will not fail) and know it is a walk off. But if you know you'll be rapping..I use lwt twins.

Kai Larson wrote: The Tendons and the Metolius are the same rope. They aren't "very nearly as good" They are the same. Metolius distributes them for Tendon in the US.

Nope, sorry Kai. The specs are the same or nearly so, but definitely NOT the same rope. I have both and the difference in the sheath is very obvious. The water-proofing isn't quite as good on the Tendons either. Still like both very much, but just sayin'.

Dane wrote: I have partners who prefer 70m ropes. But never ever seen a place we needed one over 60m. Useless weight imo. .

Since you mention Polar Circus, that's one excellent example of a climb that goes much better and faster with 70m ropes. Same for Sorcerer. If they're too heavy for you at the end if a pitch, spend more time in the gym. ;) I used to be a 70m skeptic too then got caught short of good belays one time too many or ended up wasting time short pitching. The BD ATC Guide is fine on ropes down to 7.8 IME. And yes, I've rapped the Pencil on that set up. If you need more friction, just use another biner or redirect the brake strand or use an auto-block. Easier than messing with changing devices depending on the rope system du jour. If using a retrieval cord, one should rap on a blocked knot, not the cord and rope. YMMV, and apparently does.

I've stopped counting the times I've done PC over the years and while a 70 is handy on one pitch never been hurting without one either. Did it the first time on 150' 9mm doubles ropes with no fuss.

I generally belay 5 pitches total these days. Of the last four the bottom 2 can be rope stretching pitches with a 60m and some imagination or a 70m. Not had a problem with 60m ropes there going up or down. Not enough continious roped climbing and the well spaced ledges don't merit the extra rope imo.

7.8s and bigger are fine on the BD rig. Used them in both places I mentioned as well with little problem. Just found the 7.7 Beals more comfortable on the Petzl. Enough so to mention it here and else where. And there was a signifigant differnece between ropes no matter what the manufacture says..

I'll get right on that gym membership. That won't change the fact I notice rope weight. Others do as well and the reason manufactures build lighter and lighter ropes. Feel free to use what ever rope system you like. There are lots of them.

Dane r u talking about the latest petzl reverso (4?)?

Simon Thompson wrote: Fire and ice! Just like the Trojan condoms only no mess afterwards! We haven't really had a problem yet.

You ever try those Trojans? Seems needlessly complicated for such a simple affair