Avalanche Airbag Packs

Jason N. wrote: He's quoting stuff above.

ok, so a little more money will have to be saved for the delete key

At the end of that video of Xavier De la Rue, he says - his mouth was full of snow, helmet was strangling him, other guys were starting the search way uphill. The airbag may have mostly saved him but he thinks he still would have died if the helicopter hadn't spotted him so quickly.

I have a feeling a few sarcasm-meters are in need of a solid tune... Eric? Scott? How can you possibly think JP is serious? Or that much of a moron? The 9k face should have tipped you off. Unless you plan on getting lanched all the way down Rainier it's gonna be a stretch.

Crag Dweller wrote:^^^^ I think you should save your money so you can buy one of those nice keyboards with a return key.

I think you should use some critical thinking skills and not be such a moron.

Boissal wrote:I have a feeling a few sarcasm-meters are in need of a solid tune... Eric? Scott? How can you possibly think JP is serious? Or that much of a moron? The 9k face should have tipped you off. Unless you plan on getting lanched all the way down Rainier it's gonna be a stretch.

He really wrote a 4 page thesis paper just to troll some people? Hooooly shit he has to much time on his hands.

Boissal wrote:I have a feeling a few sarcasm-meters are in need of a solid tune... Eric? Scott? How can you possibly think JP is serious? Or that much of a moron? The 9k face should have tipped you off. Unless you plan on getting lanched all the way down Rainier it's gonna be a stretch.

haha yeah...but this is the interweb so you never know.

That mentality seems to be par for the course that this doesn't come from just one guide but it seems to me to be pretty much an accepted norm.

Maybe it's the euro mentality with that type of terrain and heli on-demand, but I guess only the experts would know. It's good info for me to know that the plan is to commit to whatever terrain and to pull the airbag as the extent of safety. At that point, is there really any value in education and risk assessment?

I think a fair amount of that mindset is based on the misleading stat of 95+% effectiveness with the airbags, when reality clearly begs to differ. I have not actually seen one video case where a burial was avoided that the terrain was friendly enough without the bag. Additionally cases where avy bag users were killed and those without, survived (unburied). Granted, I haven't seen one case where the Avalung was truly tested in a long enough burial time to measure its efficacy and the inducement of protective hypothermia. But I know it's possible that it can work. So, I can agree on the bag being a tool, but nowhere near the extent that it's relied upon by the guiding community.

Overall, Dale's take on the situation is really one of taking a hard objective look about the whole thing from a human decision making standpoint and faulty bias in statistics, and one that should be more relied upon than anything else I've read.

Here's an interesting article on the whole gear aspect of the backcountry.

freeskier.com/stories/why-d…

I agree with you Buff in the sense the ABS bag is relied up too heavily as a lifesaver and not so much as a tool. I'd like to think I don't put myself in anymore danger with the bag than without.

And I've seen a few videos where it seems the bag has seemed to have done it's job. Is there anyway to really tell? Maybe not, but there are enough instances especially in Colorado where the individual pulled the cord and stayed on top of the snow. Sure it's a loose correlation...guy with ABS stays on top and lives, guy without ABS buried and dies. That being said however it's my life and even if the stats were flipped and it was a 5% rate of effectiveness as long as I'm in that 5% I'll take it. Especially with this crappy continental snowpack.

Granted it took me several years before I had the cash to get one.

Turd Ferguson! wrote: Painfully obvious that it is a troll. Perhaps you should use some critical thinking skills and not be such a moron.

He wrote a 5 page paper as a troll? really? And honestly I stopped reading after the first paragraph, I dont have time to read something that long I cant imagine how he has so much time to write it.

I'm assuming everyone here read that huge Times article about the avalanche last year where a handful of people died, and one of the few that survived lived because of her airbag.

Rob Davis wrote:I'm assuming everyone here read that huge Times article about the avalanche last year where a handful of people died, and one of the few that survived lived because of her airbag.

Steven's Pass. And there was the girl in Loveland 1-2 years ago, the guy up in Vail backcountry this year, a few you tube videos etc. I can't exaclty call it certifiable proof, but like I said there is alot of examples of people walking away after deploying their bags.

Burials that would have in question even without a bag. The problem with a fair amount of these cases, there is no standard to draw a line from to say a burial would have happened or not. The testing performed leading up to the high success rate is in question, so nobody can say that they survived an avy because of the airbag. That it was the deciding factor.

When you have testing without adequate control, I could say 100% of everything I saw was a total success.

I guess nobody else sees this, and that's unfortunate that it has gone so far in the risk assessment process like it has on a professional level.

Buff Johnson wrote:Burials that would have in question even without a bag. The problem with a fair amount of these cases, there is no standard to draw a line from to say a burial would have happened or not. The testing performed leading up to the high success rate is in question, so nobody can say that they survived an avy because of the airbag. That it was the deciding factor. When you have testing without adequate control, I could say 100% of everything I saw was a total success. I guess nobody else sees this, and that's unfortunate that it has gone so far in the risk assessment process like it has on a professional level.

Agreed...it's a totally loose unscientific correlation based on suspect testing methods.

That being said, those that have "tested" their bags have been cited to say that the bags pretty much kept them on top of the snow. You are right though that for a professional lifesaving device, the researched is still pretty spotty.

What really needs to happen is independent testing.

From today's avalanche advisory for the Salt Lake area ( utahavalanchecenter.org/adv…): "Also, a very good friend in Colorado went for a long ride, deployed his airbag, and ended up on top of the debris...but is likely out for the season with knee injuries."

It would be nice to have more details.

Buff Johnson wrote: Granted, I haven't seen one case where the Avalung was truly tested in a long enough burial time to measure its efficacy and the inducement of protective hypothermia. But I know it's possible that it can work.

Reports aren't clear whether the skiers had or deployed airbags (Post says they had an avalung but apparently confuses its purpose with that of an airbag).

However, I'd say here's your test case regarding the effectiveness of the avalung - 3 hours.

Edit to add: read a comment on TGR from someone close to the skiers, evidently the survivor didn't have the avalung tube in his mouth during burial. So, not a test case for the avalung.

coloradoan.com/article/2013…

denverpost.com/breakingnews…

Here's a timely blog post on the subject.

utahavalanchecenter.org/blo…

Sorry I have not checked back in a few days, but MP is just too easy these days. Thanks for the responses guys,

But yeah, I have pulled 6 times already just in March alone, it's part of the game man. Getting caught is part of the thrill and I accept it.

I'm thinking about a GPS pack that makes air horn sounds and has built in ABS, and Avi Ball in addition to an avalung all in one pack.

All the features are activated if the pack is not in motion for more then a minute, unless you already pulled your bag then all features are activated.

JPVallone wrote:Sorry I have not checked back in a few days, but MP is just too easy these days. Thanks for the responses guys, But yeah, I have pulled 6 times already just in March alone, it's part of the game man. Getting caught is part of the thrill and I accept it. I'm thinking about a GPS pack that makes air horn sounds and has built in ABS, and Avi Ball in addition to an avalung all in one pack. All the features are activated if the pack is not in motion for more then a minute, unless you already pulled your bag then all features are activated.

I like your ideas, and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

JPVallone wrote:Sorry I have not checked back in a few days, but MP is just too easy these days. Thanks for the responses guys, But yeah, I have pulled 6 times already just in March alone, it's part of the game man. Getting caught is part of the thrill and I accept it. I'm thinking about a GPS pack that makes air horn sounds and has built in ABS, and Avi Ball in addition to an avalung all in one pack. All the features are activated if the pack is not in motion for more then a minute, unless you already pulled your bag then all features are activated.

Friggin' awesome!
I'm gonna get one of those multi-tech-avalanche-packs, and go go for the Guinness Book of World Records for most-number-of-times-to-survive-an-avalanche-in-March category!

Morons.