Bolts Bolts Bolts

The problem I have with PS is that SOMEONE will still need to pony up the money and time in the not too distant future to replace them. Even though they ARE easy to swap out, the FIRST TIME you do swap PS for PS you've likely exceeded the cost of SS. The cost of SS up front is WELL WORTH IT in the long run and will probably save 3-4x $$ or more over the long run. Lets encourage long term thinking on these issues.

mattm wrote:The problem I have with PS is that SOMEONE will still need to pony up the money and time in the not too distant future to replace them. Even though they ARE easy to swap out, the FIRST TIME you do swap PS for PS you've likely exceeded the cost of SS. The cost of SS up front is WELL WORTH IT in the long run and will probably save 3-4x $$ or more over the long run. Lets encourage long term thinking on these issues.

While I 100% agree with you in concept, having a $3-4 replacable solution may convince some to use it over the $3 non-replacable (also plated) solution. Taking the hard-line view never works to change others actions.

kennoyce wrote: All those dirt cheap developers who are paying less than $2 per plated bolt hanger combo.

I guess the cheapest plated hangers I have seen is $1.49 and cheap wedges for $.50..so yes I am sure a few will save the buck or two, but having a better option for so much less...is better than just another $10 per bolt option.

Mike Bond wrote: I guess the cheapest plated hangers I have seen is $1.49 and cheap wedges for $.50..so yes I am sure a few will save the buck or two, but having a better option for so much less...is better than just another $10 per bolt option.

I guess the problem I see is that there already is a removable plated bolt/hanger option for around three bucks, you can easily find plated hangers for $1.50 - $2.00 and a plated power-bolt is around a buck. While this option would be easier to remove than a power-bolt, I have removed power-bolts and it's not that difficult to do.

From what I've seen, the developers who try to do it on the cheap generally couldn't care less about the longevity or removability of their bolts, so I don't think they would pay any more than what they are paying for their plated wedge bolts, and a plated version of this will cost more.

Also, like mattm, I don't like the idea of more plated options on the market because that just means that someone else will have to replace the bolts a few years down the road.

Where I think these bolts do have a place in the market would be an inexpensive removable stainless bolt. Currently we have inexpensive stainless bolts with stainless wedges, we have expensive removable stainless bolts with the power-bolt or the fixe triplex, but we need a bolt that will help allow developers who are using either removable plated bolts, or stainless wedge bolts to switch to a removable stainless bolt without too much of a cost increase over what they are currently using and it sounds like this is what climb tech is trying to do.

The dirt-bag developers aren't going to switch from their dirt-bag ways so after thinking some more about it I just don't think there is a reason to produce a plated version. This would just allow the developers who are already using removable plated bolts to continue doing so but with another option (even if it is a better option in that it is easier to remove). We really should be trying to get them to switch to stainless.

mattm wrote:The problem I have with PS is that SOMEONE will still need to pony up the money and time in the not too distant future to replace them. Even though they ARE easy to swap out, the FIRST TIME you do swap PS for PS you've likely exceeded the cost of SS. The cost of SS up front is WELL WORTH IT in the long run and will probably save 3-4x $$ or more over the long run. Lets encourage long term thinking on these issues.

I emphatically agree. It doesn't matter if you're swapping out PS for stainless (in places where stainless is the right long-term solution) or swapping stainless for titanium (in places where Ti is needed), it's always less expensive to do it right the first time.

I have been appalled at the attitudes of so many people involved in bolting. Ten or twenty years is NOT long-term. Rock is a non-renewable resource and land managers are not stupid. When they see climbers regularly rebolting, it highlights the fact that safety has been seriously compromised. When they see clusters of old bolts and holes at every clip, they see damage to the resource that has no end. It's an important sustainability and access issue.

So if you want to be allowed to climb in "your" favorite area, don't be stupid. Spend a little extra money to do it right the first time! And the only time.

ClimbtechGear wrote:Thanks everyone. For arguments sake, I think is a bit unfair to compare our sleeve bolt to wedge bolts. Also, keep in mind this is going to be electro polished 304 stainless steel. Compared to stainless Fixe Triplex, Hilti HSLs, Power-Bolts and even stainless Confast this will come in much cheaper. Not a problem, getting them below or close to stainless wedgebolts is impossible, sorry. We're trying though! In many cases we might even be competitive with these manufacturers plated pricing also...which leads to my next point. An idea, would be to make a plated version. Price would drop dramatically and would hopefully reduce the use of wedge style bolts entirely. Again, the bolt is easily replaceable...why not? New routers might actually use them! Thoughts?

Curiously, have you looked into making it out of 316SS? Three one six is oftentimes only fractionally more expensive, sometimes only about 5% more expensive. I am curious as to how much it would affect the price in this application.

We did, its a lot more expensive in production and we don't see the benefit of having two types of stainless for this bolt. We are at the mercy of stainless prices right now, and they continue to rise.

Plus, a 316 bolt and cone is softer and we want this thing strong. In larger sizes Powers doesn't use a stainless cone for the same reason, they actually have a plated cone...

Initial testing has been going really well, we're making good progress, thanks again for all the constructive feedback. Holler if you have questions, I'll keep everyone posted on prices asap.

ClimbtechGear wrote:

So Chris, a few weeks ago we discussed the broken Ti bolt in Texas back in 2008. Since you said you knew the guy who broke it, and has it, I asked if you could send me the bolt for failure analysis. I haven't heard anything since. What's the story?

Dear all.
This is my first post on this site and it's been really interesting reading all the posts and I wanted to give you my point of view.

For the last 4 years I have been organising the production of the Titanium bolts used in Thailand for the Thaitanium project along with many others around the world.
I understand the complexities quite well of producing such a bolt made from Titanium and I have found through experience that the first 2 companies I dealt with could not make consistently excellent bolts. When tested, the first batch from the first company looked good but when mechanically tested their strength varied wildly and although they could bend them nicely, they could not weld consistently.
The second company could weld extremely well but the bending was poor and although consistently strong enough, didn't look great.
I struck third time lucky with the next company and they have produced about 5,000 bolts in many batches. Every time, the bolts are bent extremely well and the welds are not only consistently strong but ductile proving that they understand the very important stages of production that Titanium demands.
I have had a sample of every batch tested at an independent lab and every test has been remarkably similar (31kN) proving consistent practices throughout manufacture.

It saddens me to know that many people think of 20 or 30 years being an acceptable lifespan for a bolt. We all know that the beautiful rock that we climb on has been around for millions of years. The 4 metallurgists that I have spoken to about this 10mm welded P bolt design in grade 2 Titanium have all said that it will be plenty strong enough for many hundreds of years and probably thousands of years in the harshest environment that we currently climb in. A place where good quality Stainless bolts and hangers can last only a few years before breaking under bodyweight. In this same environment, the Grade 2 Titanium bolts still look like new after the 12 years that they have been there with no apparent fatigue, corrosion or failure.

I'm aware of the 'Texas Titanium bolt failure' and it seems that it was badly placed. If anybody knows otherwise please let us know.
I'm also aware of the Grade 2 Ushba bolts that failed terribly under test. I can only assume that those bolts were not welded in a vacuum or otherwise welded without the exclusion of oxygen. It's imperative that Oxygen is excluded from the weld not only while it's performed but also while the area is cooling down otherwise embrittlement will occur.
When manufactured properly, I believe Titanium bolts to be the longest lasting solution.
It's clear to me that the limitation of the life of a bolt placement is then limited by the epoxy resin. It's commonly understood by everybody that has placed these Titanium bolts that Hilti RE-500 is used as it is waterproof and chemically inert once cured (4 to 72 hours depending upon temperature). As far as I know, no epoxy resin manufacturer will offer a guarantee for climbing purposes but the two facts of waterproof and chemically inert should mean it's good for an extremely long time.

We should not be so short sighted and penny pinching to complain about the expense of a very long lasting solution. So what if they are 3 times the price of a cheap bolt/hanger that has a short lifespan?
I'm sick of seeing 3 generations of bolting efforts within 20 years.
What will the precious rock look like in a few generations time?
These bolts are $9 each by the way which I think is very reasonable.

As my Dad said "Do it once, do it right first time"

Martin Roberts wrote:Dear all. This is my first post on this site and it's been really interesting reading all the posts and I wanted to give you my point of view. For the last 4 years I have been organising the production of the Titanium bolts used in Thailand for the Thaitanium project along with many others around the world. I understand the complexities quite well of producing such a bolt made from Titanium and I have found through experience that the first 2 companies I dealt with could not make consistently excellent bolts. When tested, the first batch from the first company looked good but when mechanically tested their strength varied wildly and although they could bend them nicely, they could not weld consistently. The second company could weld extremely well but the bending was poor and although consistently strong enough, didn't look great. I struck third time lucky with the next company and they have produced about 5,000 bolts in many batches. Every time, the bolts are bent extremely well and the welds are not only consistently strong but ductile proving that they understand the very important stages of production that Titanium demands. I have had a sample of every batch tested at an independent lab and every test has been remarkably similar (31kN) proving consistent practices throughout manufacture. It saddens me to know that many people think of 20 or 30 years being an acceptable lifespan for a bolt. We all know that the beautiful rock that we climb on has been around for millions of years. The 4 metallurgists that I have spoken to about this 10mm welded P bolt design in grade 2 Titanium have all said that it will be plenty strong enough for many hundreds of years and probably thousands of years in the harshest environment that we currently climb in. A place where good quality Stainless bolts and hangers can last only a few years before breaking under bodyweight. In this same environment, the Grade 2 Titanium bolts still look like new after the 12 years that they have been there with no apparent fatigue, corrosion or failure. I'm aware of the 'Texas Titanium bolt failure' and it seems that it was badly placed. If anybody knows otherwise please let us know. I'm also aware of the Grade 2 Ushba bolts that failed terribly under test. I can only assume that those bolts were not welded in a vacuum or otherwise welded without the exclusion of oxygen. It's imperative that Oxygen is excluded from the weld not only while it's performed but also while the area is cooling down otherwise embrittlement will occur. When manufactured properly, I believe Titanium bolts to be the longest lasting solution. It's clear to me that the limitation of the life of a bolt placement is then limited by the epoxy resin. It's commonly understood by everybody that has placed these Titanium bolts that Hilti RE-500 is used as it is waterproof and chemically inert once cured (4 to 72 hours depending upon temperature). As far as I know, no epoxy resin manufacturer will offer a guarantee for climbing purposes but the two facts of waterproof and chemically inert should mean it's good for an extremely long time. We should not be so short sighted and penny pinching to complain about the expense of a very long lasting solution. So what if they are 3 times the price of a cheap bolt/hanger that has a short lifespan? I'm sick of seeing 3 generations of bolting efforts within 20 years. What will the precious rock look like in a few generations time? These bolts are $9 each by the way which I think is very reasonable. As my Dad said "Do it once, do it right first time"

We use Simpson SET XP and Powers T308+ in Hawaii to install our Ti bolts. Our oldest titanium bolts are about seven years old, and so far they still look brand new (epoxy included). Simpson claims that the SET XP resin has no practical lifespan limits in marine environments.

John Byrnes wrote: So Chris, a few weeks ago we discussed the broken Ti bolt in Texas back in 2008. Since you said you knew the guy who broke it, and has it, I asked if you could send me the bolt for failure analysis. I haven't heard anything since. What's the story?

Hey Josh!

He's keeping it for its sentimental value to him.

You're right about the install, they didn't trough the bolt like you guys recommend either. It was an Ushba also. This is likely because the bolt was in a roof, so the bolt likely slid out a bit while the glue was curing. That roof is downtown, its the crux bolt, the route was at one point a very soft 12a and just about every possible failure scenario was in place for it to fail...and it did. High traffic with, not the best quality bolt and exposed rod after installation is going rough on an anchor no matter what its made of.

Good meeting you guys and best of luck with the Ti Glue-in initiative!

Your bolts are BOMBER! If anyone is looking for Ti, Martin is the man!

-Chris

ClimbtechGear wrote: Hey Josh!

I'm not Josh. And Josh would be upset being mistaken for me.

ClimbtechGear wrote: He's keeping it for its sentimental value to him. You're right about the install, they didn't trough the bolt like you guys recommend either.

So in other words he's impeding the investigation into the only Ti bolt failure that has occurred in the field so that morons will be able to say Ti is brittle ad infinitum.

More importantly, the original designer of the Ti bolts, Mike S, strongly recommends that you do NOT trough them for several reasons. None are troughed on Cayman Brac. Many have been troughed in Thailand, but Mike spoke with Josh at our meeting last year and hopefully that practice will stop.

ClimbtechGear wrote:It was an Ushba also. ...not the best quality bolt...

Chris, would you please stop insinuating the Ushba bolts are somehow inferior? There's nothing wrong with them.

ClimbtechGear wrote: This is likely because the bolt was in a roof, so the bolt likely slid out a bit while the glue was curing.

The failure is almost certainly because it was improperly installed. The story I heard about the person who broke it being clipped-in directly, forgot he was in, started climbing and fell. Yup, sure sounds like someone who would place more importance on keeping his souvenir than on uncovering the facts.

John Byrnes wrote: I'm not Josh. And Josh would be upset being mistaken for me.

Sorry John, I guess somebody had a case of the Mondays...on a Tuesday? Not sure why I feel like you're harshing me bro, but these internets are none tonal so I understand completely if you're not really being defensive but it just reads like you are...its all love on my side of the fence though...whatever.

John Byrnes wrote: So in other words he's impeding the investigation into the only Ti bolt failure that has occurred in the field so that morons will be able to say Ti is brittle ad infinitum.

He broke it, its his and yes, this isolated incident symbolizing a "kink in your titanium bolt armor" has been well documented online and the points have been made in your favor. If you think that your bolts are going to last forever, they very well could, but you cant say the glue will last forever. Hilti says its RE500 is good for 50 years in any environment so there's another argument that isn't in your favor. What good is a glue in bolt without glue? Hope you'll take that as fact and not insinuated opinion. Simpson might be a good alternative! 20kN coming through with the l337 beta as always.

John Byrnes wrote: More importantly, the original designer of the Ti bolts, Mike S, strongly recommends that you do NOT trough them for several reasons. None are troughed on Cayman Brac. Many have been troughed in Thailand, but Mike spoke with Josh at our meeting last year and hopefully that practice will stop.

At the Access Fund's Future of Fixed Gear conference the demo was done with a trough using Hilti RE500... Sam Lighter did the demo...hes done some bolting in Thailand too! I'm pretty sure I've talked to Mike S. and Martin about this practice, at length, on the phone as well. ClimbTech considered distribution at one point about 6 months ago too, if you didn't know this, well, you have been informed. I have several on my desk that Martin sent me. If you guys want this method of installation stopped maybe come up with a manual of sorts?

John Byrnes wrote: Chris, would you please stop insinuating the Ushba bolts are somehow inferior? There's nothing wrong with them.

No. Hope that's ok? OH WELL! I think the bolts Martin distributes are superior in quality. Badass even...

John Byrnes wrote: The failure is almost certainly because it was improperly installed. The story I heard about the person who broke it being clipped-in directly, forgot he was in, started climbing and fell. Yup, sure sounds like someone who would place more importance on keeping his souvenir than on uncovering the facts.

Happens dude, sometimes life isn't fair? I agree with you, and wrote that installation was a hypothesized reason for failure in my previous post. You're not gonna get his bolt though, no matter how much pouting you tell your fingers to type on a public forum. If you're looking for a debate, you wont find much of one with me, I like Martin's Ti bolts...a lot and will refer customers in coastal environments all day. Cool?



Hope your day is going better today John!

Again, props to you guys on your Ti bolts, we're all working towards the same goal here. Keeping our crags clean, uncluttered and ultimately safer for future generations. I actually love the idea of using our mechanical Legacy Bolts for new routing and retro bolting the routes using the same holes for glue in bolts for long term use!

Titanium goodness

ClimbtechGear wrote: If you think that your bolts are going to last forever, they very well could, but you cant say the glue will last forever. Hilti says its RE500 is good for 50 years in any environment so there's another argument that isn't in your favor. What good is a glue in bolt without glue? Hope you'll take that as fact and not insinuated opinion.

A 50 year lifespan?! RE-500 meets all national and international building codes and is widely used in the construction industry for structural applications: skyscrapers, bridges and roads. So you think that these things will just fall down in 50 years? You're stupider than I thought.

You live in Texas. Familiar with Interstate 45 in Huston? There's about 500 cases of RE-500 holding it together. If you think it's going to collapse in 50 years, you should alert the press.



I called Hilti (800) 879-8000. The service life of RE-500 cannot be quoted in years because there's no way to rigorously predict its failure. Why? Because there is no known agent that can degrade its integrity. And they've tried everything. One thing they will guarantee though, it will outlast the concrete or rock it is embedded in. How many centuries do you think that is?

ClimbtechGear wrote: At the Access Fund's Future of Fixed Gear conference the demo was done with a trough using Hilti RE500... Sam Lighter did the demo...hes done some bolting in Thailand too!

It used to be common for doctors to bleed sick patients too.

I have the utmost respect for Sam but that doesn't make troughing the right method. Sam is not a metallurgist nor engineer. Mike is. He designed the Ti bolts and his everyday job involves developing Ti parts for aerospace applications. Who you gonna believe?

Furthermore, the pull-tests, at least the ones done at BD, were done on bolts that were not troughed. If there's pull-data on troughed bolts, I'd like to see it.

ClimbtechGear wrote:I'm pretty sure I've talked to Mike S. and Martin about this practice, at length, on the phone as well.

You talked to me at length. And I remember thinking, "This guy's a real tool." Now I'm sure of it.

ClimbtechGear wrote:I think the bolts Martin distributes are superior in quality.

Superior to what? They are identical to the Ushba bolts. And the U.T. version, with the pressed threads and no chisel tip, is a better design (and cheaper to manufacture), in our opinion.

ClimbtechGear wrote: You're not gonna get his bolt though, no matter how much pouting you tell your fingers to type on a public forum.

Well then the only thing we can conclude is that your friend is a moron for installing a bolt, any bolt, with over an inch of the shaft protruding from the rock creating a huge lever-arm. Bird of a feather.

ClimbtechGear wrote: If you're looking for a debate, you wont find much of one with me,

That's for sure. "I would challenge you to a battle of wits but I see you are unarmed." -- Shakespeare

ClimbtechGear wrote:I like Martin's Ti bolts...a lot and will refer customers in coastal environments all day. Cool?

Please don't, your recommendation reduces their credibility. Besides, as I've posted in detail before, SCC occurs INLAND as well. But you clearly don't understand that.

Chris, you've clearly painted yourself as a moron. So please stop posting bullshit and calling it fact, and we won't mention the abject failure of your wave bolt demo in Vegas.

John Byrnes wrote: A 50 year lifespan?! RE-500 meets all national and international building codes and is widely used in the construction industry for structural applications: skyscrapers, bridges and roads. So you think that these things will just fall down in 50 years? You're stupider than I thought. You live in Texas. Familiar with Interstate 45 in Huston? There's about 500 cases of RE-500 holding it together. If you think it's going to collapse in 50 years, you should alert the press. I called Hilti (800) 879-8000. The service life of RE-500 cannot be quoted in years because there's no way to rigorously predict its failure. Why? Because there is no known agent that can degrade its integrity. And they've tried everything. One thing they will guarantee though, it will outlast the concrete or rock it is embedded in. How many centuries do you think that is? It used to be common for doctors to bleed sick patients too. I have the utmost respect for Sam but that doesn't make troughing the right method. Sam is not a metallurgist nor engineer. Mike is. He designed the Ti bolts and his everyday job involves developing Ti parts for aerospace applications. Who you gonna believe? Furthermore, the pull-tests, at least the ones done at BD, were done on bolts that were not troughed. If there's pull-data on troughed bolts, I'd like to see it. You talked to me at length. And I remember thinking, "This guy's a real tool." Now I'm sure of it. Superior to what? They are identical to the Ushba bolts. And the U.T. version, with the pressed threads and no chisel tip, is a better design (and cheaper to manufacture), in our opinion. Well then the only thing we can conclude is that your friend is a moron for installing a bolt, any bolt, with over an inch of the shaft protruding from the rock creating a huge lever-arm. Bird of a feather. That's for sure. "I would challenge you to a battle of wits but I see you are unarmed." -- Shakespeare Please don't, your recommendation reduces their credibility. Besides, as I've posted in detail before, SCC occurs INLAND as well. But you clearly don't understand that. Chris, you've clearly painted yourself as a moron. So please stop posting bullshit and calling it fact, and we won't mention the abject failure of your wave bolt demo in Vegas.

QFP.

Makes me almost miss rec.climbing...ha ha.

John Byrnes wrote: A 50 year lifespan?! RE-500 meets all national and international building codes and is widely used in the construction industry for structural applications: skyscrapers, bridges and roads. So you think that these things will just fall down in 50 years? You're stupider than I thought. You live in Texas. Familiar with Interstate 45 in Huston? There's about 500 cases of RE-500 holding it together. If you think it's going to collapse in 50 years, you should alert the press. I called Hilti (800) 879-8000. The service life of RE-500 cannot be quoted in years because there's no way to rigorously predict its failure. Why? Because there is no known agent that can degrade its integrity. And they've tried everything. One thing they will guarantee though, it will outlast the concrete or rock it is embedded in. How many centuries do you think that is?

This is not the case, there are a number of international building codes it doesn´t conform to the most relevant to us being it is only for use in uncracked concrete/stone (ETA 04/0027). There are other products (including some from Hilti) which are approved for both cracked and uncracked. For bolting in limestone with it´s porosity and solution channels which cannot be seen it is generally considered as a better option to go for a dual-classified resin.

The 50 year lifespan is derived from the European Technical Approval and is not a guarantee, merely an expectation. "The provisions made in this European technical approval are based on an assumed working
life of the anchor of 50 years. The indications given on the working life cannot be interpreted as a guarantee given by the producer, but are to be regarded only as a means for choosing the right products in relation to the expected economically reasonable working life of the
works."
Hilti Europe will give no guarantee for lifespan.

That they feel it will outlast concrete or rock sounds wildly unrealistic for a sensible, reliable and knowlegeable company like Hilti. I for one would like to see that in writing (and I still wouldn´t believe them). Since Hilti have only 30 years experience in chemical anchoring and there are rocks over 4 billion years old on Earth then a certain amount of scepticism about claims of that nature are perhaps wise.

Epoxies (and the modified epoxies) are not chemically inert,since they are organic substances this would be extremely unlikely or impossible. There are quite a number of substances available to dissolve epoxy and the most relevant to us may be sulphuric acid (and perhaps water). It also degrades rapidly in UV light. Epoxy stripper is readily available.

For whatever it's worth to you guys, I am someone who spent A LOT of his own time and money trying to be part of the rebolting effort in Thailand. I seriously thought about buying the climbing shop I was working for, just so I could stay in Thailand and utilise the resources I had to help get more good bolts in Thai limestone.

One of the main reasons I decided not to stay was that I was fed up with the politics and the egotistical bullshit that became a part of every bolting discussion. It's sad that people are short sighted in their views on bolting, but what's really depressing is that progress is slow because of all the bickering.

I love it that you guys are all so psyched on getting things done correctly, but lose the ego. Take a step back and realize that you all want the same thing. Work together for God's sake.

Locker wrote:Some pretty good reading going on. Entertaining...

Indeed...buckle up! I'll try to keep personal insults to a minimum and actually try to get somewhere with this.

John Byrnes wrote: Chris, you've clearly painted yourself as a moron. So please stop posting bullshit and calling it fact, and we won't mention the abject failure of your wave bolt demo in Vegas.

Whoa, you were the tall guy? Caver? So much nicer in person! You're a bolt dork, which is cool. I'm a bolt dork too. I don't remember talking to you on the phone...sorry.

Thanks Jim, this is great stuff.

Jim Titt wrote: The 50 year lifespan is derived from the European Technical Approval and is not a guarantee, merely an expectation. "The provisions made in this European technical approval are based on an assumed working life of the anchor of 50 years. The indications given on the working life cannot be interpreted as a guarantee given by the producer, but are to be regarded only as a means for choosing the right products in relation to the expected economically reasonable working life of the works."

Again, take it easy John. You're a man that stands for something, that's good, too bad you cant see past your own self worth to understand we're all working towards the same ultimate goal. I'm not saying I know more than anyone else, so you can go on quoting shakespeare all you want. I just really don't remember talking with you on the phone...or even meeting you...

John Byrnes wrote: ... and we won't mention the abject failure of your wave bolt demo in Vegas.

ClimbTechs Wavebolts are done and looking great, the Wavebolt demo never happened so I'm not sure what you're talking about? I was 100% up front with everyone at the conference about that. The prototypes were tested the night before and the waves still needed more tweaking so we didn't demo, problem fixed!

Ryan Williams wrote:For whatever it's worth to you guys, I am someone who spent A LOT of his own time and money trying to be part of the rebolting effort in Thailand. I seriously thought about buying the climbing shop I was working for, just so I could stay in Thailand and utilise the resources I had to help get more good bolts in Thai limestone. One of the main reasons I decided not to stay was that I was fed up with the politics and the egotistical bullshit that became a part of every bolting discussion. It's sad that people are short sighted in their views on bolting, but what's really depressing is that progress is slow because of all the bickering. I love it that you guys are all so psyched on getting things done correctly, but lose the ego. Take a step back and realize that you all want the same thing. Work together for God's sake.

+1 and well stated Ryan.

I appreciate Chris' efforts here to talk about bolts and trying to do things better. We all have the same interests of safety and quality here so I don't see how the incessant name calling by John is getting us anywhere. I see John in Rifle with some regularity and I doubt he knows who I am or cares at all but I didn't see him at the bolting conference and a lot of what he has spewed here seems unhelpful, inflammatory, and in some cases, wrong. I appreciate the efforts of guys like Chris and Jim and John and others to talk shop and share what they know.

I would appreciate a civil conversation and am interested in everyone's experience and knowledge, backed up by solid evidence, so we can learn. Name calling and "I talked to so and so", without cited evidence, is not productive.

Cheers

This is my last post on this topic, and I will not be following it either. Not worth the aggravation.

Just beware when people who work for bolt companies denigrate a solution that outperforms their product and was developed, paid for and installed by volunteers who never make a penny.

Beware of people who withhold information. They're hiding something, such as the source of those failed Ti bolts that were tested at the DAV. Counterfeit titanium climbing gear, such as Friends, ice screws, carabiners, etc. have been coming out Russia for three decades with famously poor quality.

(And yes, Jim, if you place a bolt in cracked concrete, in loose rock or drill into a void, that bolt won't hold. The same is true if the concrete cracks in service or the rock fractures.

This is true of any bolt, expansion type or glue-in. Personally, I don't believe those people in Huston need to worry about the flying highway collapsing on them in the next 50 years, nor will I worry about my bolts pulling out.)

Beware of people who say SCC only happens in marine environments. A. Sjong and L. Eiselstein get the credit for doing a full analysis and determining the root cause of SCC in stainless in limestone. It's rainwater, not seawater, we need to worry about. Copies of this peer-reviewed article are available: Journal of Failure Analysis and Prevention, October 2008, Volume 8, Issue 5, pp 410-418.

Lastly, I apologize to Martin. His bolts are NOT identical to the Ushba bolts. I was apparently shown an old version and not told about the new one.

I'm not a politician and I can't deal with ignorance, half-truths, and outright lies being promoted as fact. Sorry, that's just the way I am. Over and out.