concentric contractions for training finger strength
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I've started working on concentric contractions of my gripping muscles. I know lots of people think that finger strength for climbing is mostly about isometric. And I'm still training that some too (and still actually climbing). But I want to focus on concentric as a special phase in my training program with the idea that it's the best way to build more and bigger muscle fibers.
So now I'm looking for more suggestions, "concentric" stories, theories, warnings. Ken |
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Looks like you've been browsing around the IronMind site. The obvious choice for another type of concentric training tool would be the Captains of Crush grippers or the IMTUG grippers. |
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kenr wrote:But I want to focus on concentric as a special phase in my training program with the idea that it's the best way to build more and bigger muscle fibers.I think typically eccentric training is more effective at hypertrophy. Just a thought. Can you increase the load on the eccentric phase? My only other thought is that this seems like a pretty expensive set-up to train finger strength? And let me know if you find the training tedious. I find rotator cuff training to be really tedious but force myself to do it because I have to. |
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Aerili wrote: Can you increase the load on the eccentric phase?I've used a TTK. You can easily do eccentrics by squeezing with both hands, then lowering the weight with just one. My experience agrees with the lifters, it's better as a thumb/pinch grip trainer. The extended finger position is not one I commonly use climbing. As for the Captains of Crush, they are fun to play with, but seem to have no specificity for climbing. I've seen 5.14 climbers fail to close the trainer, which makes me think maybe they aren't really going to help that much. |
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Dana wrote:As for the Captains of Crush, they are fun to play with, but seem to have no specificity for climbing. I've seen 5.14 climbers fail to close the trainer, which makes me think maybe they aren't really going to help that much. I think you're on to something there. Someone (Can't remember who/when, perhaps Phil Watts?) did a small study on grip strength using Captains of Crush type grippers. He found that the grip strength of elite climbers, measured using that type of device, was no better than that of an average athletic male.I had my grip strength tested by a digital device, and it did not register too high above average. |
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JohnWesely wrote: I had my grip strength tested by a digital device, and it did not register too high above average.This has been reported several times about climbers. Some guesses why: (A) Part of it might be lack of specific neural training, since there is almost no use for concentric contraction of the fingers in actual climbing situation. Maybe if climbers just took a month to practice with the "grip strength" measurement device, they'd soon do much better than most non-climbers. (B) I'll guess that most of the digital measurement devices (what does one look like?) utilize mostly the MCP flexion muscles (3rd articulation back from the tip), not the FDS and FDP muscles which drive the DIP and PIP articulations (the two closest to the fingertip). Seems to me that eccentric contraction of the FDS and FDP muscles is critical for "latching" the next sloper or edge-hold with an Open grip at the top of a deadpoint or dyno move (but MCP flexion is not). And of course isometric contraction of FDS + FDP just for "hanging on" with an Open grip. I think that MCP flexion is needed to (isometrically) support a Crimp grip -- and some eccentric contraction support launching a deadpoint of dyno from a Crimp grip -- so I guess I'm a bit surprised that climbers do not seem to be displaying that strength when squeezing on a digital grip measurement device. (C) perhaps lack of strength in the Thumb muscles of climbers is the "weak link" which makes it difficult to utilize the superior strength of the climber's fingers. Like the fingers don't have strong enough opposition to push against? Ken |
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Mark E Dixon wrote:I've used a TTK ... My experience agrees with the lifters, it's better as a thumb/pinch grip trainer. The extended finger position is not one I commonly use climbing.So far I've been careful to arrange the configuration of my arm and hand so that my thumb was not involved very much. Instead mainly the lower part of the palm of my hand was opposing the pushing of my fingers. I'll have to see if that still works as I increase the resistance weight more. Extended finger position? If you mean like with Open grip, I don't use it so much either in my actual climbing. But lots of experts seem to say that I'm supposed to be using it more (instead of Crimping). I do sometimes consciously remind myself that out on the rock. When practicing Campusing moves indoors, I do make sure to always to grab the next higher hold with an (extended?) Open grip (not a Crimp). Ken |
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Brent Apgar wrote:... have used the eagle loops. The loops are a little nicer than just using webbing or a daisy chain but you're going to get a similar training stimulus. Basically loading one or two fingers at a time. One cool thing you can do w/ the loops is one arm rows w/ a single finger or pairs.Yes I'm looking forward to trying out Eagle Loops. Tho some training document I found on IronMind.com seemed to say that Eagle Loops were more for isometric training, and suggested something called a Claw Curl for concentric/eccentric. Brent Apgar wrote: > I would still say that if you're looking to pull on small > holds a hangboard is still probably the most efficient > way to build finger strength exclusively. I'm surely not giving up on using my fingerboard. Ken |
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Eagle Loops from IronMind.com -- just started trying them out.
Except that instead of hanging body weight down from the loops as in that photo, I'm hanging weights off the Eagle Loops on my fingers + arm hanging down my side. Liking them a very much. Which quickly led me to a simpler apparatus for concentric/eccentric training of Mono-finger ... A short loop of webbing/sling/runner with weights attached to it. (so far I'm preferring 9/16-inch tubular Nylon over Dyneema for DIP flexion) And I'm finding very convenient for attaching standard barbell/dumbbell weight plates to hang from the loop is the Loading Pin for plates To isolate the flexion of the DIP articulation (fingertip joint) in a mono-finger grip, what I'm playing with is: (a) using my other hand to "lock out" my other finger joints, especially the PIP articulation (2nd joint from the tip). (Future might be a Splint with velcro straps) (b) keep the loop in position in the middle of the pad of my fingertip, without slipping off between reps -- by attaching it to the top and bottom of the finger with Yes indeed ... duct tape . . . (to be precise, Scotch "transparent" duct tape) Some climber must have tried this "apparatus" before. I'm eager for more suggestions. Ken |
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PIP flexion in isolation next: |
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Ken, I hope you really enjoy training as much as it seems, because I'm not sure any of this is going to make you a better climber! |
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Mark E Dixon wrote:I've used the eagle loops. Generally didn't like them that much as they pinched my fingers.I'll have to see what happens as I increase the weight. Anyway I'm not sure how much I'll be using the Eagle Loops, now that I figured out that I could just use nylon webbing instead (at least for Mono-finger grips). The tubular webbing I'm trying seems smoother and softer on the skin of my fingers than the stuff they use for Eagle Loops. What I really like about the webbing or cloth loop idea is that it seems to enable me to isolate the flexion of the first (DIP) articulation of each finger -- which I think is real important for Open-grip strength (and I'm guessing also valuable for holding onto a sloper). Right now where I live there's not many good days for outdoor climbing, so it's not like time + effort spent on loop-apparatus training is taking away from something else of great benefit. Ken |
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kenr wrote: Right now where I live there's not many good days for outdoor climbing, so it's not like time + effort spent on loop-apparatus training is taking away from something else of great benefit. KenNo climbing gym or space for a woodie? |
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I've got excellent gyms close by, so I can do that as much or as little as I want. There's little danger of me getting too little experience or training-stress for gym-style climbing. |
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Ken, would it be possible to do your structured training before going to the climbing gym on your training days? |
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Nate Reno wrote:I want to do the precise, calculated, small increment type work first when I'm freshGood point. I've been compromising on that. If I really think that building certain kinds of specific hypertrophy (? and specific neural recruitment patterns ?) is a key long-term strategy, then in this "off-season" phase I suppose I really ought to give highest priority to those special exercises -- and put general full-body climbing-movement practice into a lower priority. I've been making steady gains in my measured home workouts anyway doing them after full-body-motion climbing -- but maybe I'd make even faster bigger gains if I did the measured workouts while I'm still fresh. Sounds like something I should try -- Thanks. Ken |
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My big question now for concentric finger training: |