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Geeking out on going light with trad.

Superclimber · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 1,310
Brassmonkey wrote: Well you might be right for a certain sect of climbers. These climbers are the same type of bikers that I smile at when they explain to me that this $1000 dollar part is 20g lighter than the $200 dollar part all while they have 20 extra pounds hanging off of their belly. I wonder what that 20 lbs equates to monetarily in that context. (some also just have the coin and like gear) Either way when you start climbing harder trad (I noticed your profile said you lead 5.8, if this is incorrect I apologize) it definitely can matter, in the same way a lighter rope or draws matter in sport climbing. Is some of it negligible? Of course; but when you are trying to, say onsight a 12a on gear, weight definitely can matter. Of course even this is relative as there are climbers who could easliy do this with an extremely heavy and outdated rack. And I am routinely 4-6% body fat, I have no weight to lose.
I could stand to loose 5-10 lbs, but fuck that.
Superclimber · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 1,310
Ben B. wrote: My small "spare tire" is a spare battery.
Mine is a fuel tank for a sex machine, ha!
Ray Pinpillage · · West Egg · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 180
Ben B. wrote: I do not think I'm any kind of amazing speed climber, but I've never met anyone who can out-pace me on vertical gain, whether hiking up or on route. I've climbed with some pretty fit dudes... work out all the time, run, eat right, have Greek bodies. Me? I have a spare tire. The only conditioning I do is climbing a couple times a month. I do have an intermittently physical job, and that helps... but I think the reason I can go full blast and for so much longer is ENERGY RESERVES. My small "spare tire" is a spare battery. That's my theory, anyway. There's not really any other explanation for it.
Sounds like you need to climb with faster people.
S Denny · · Aspen, CO · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 20
Ray Pinpillage wrote: Sounds like you need to climb with faster people.
for real
Ray Pinpillage · · West Egg · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 180
Ben B. wrote: Lets do it, du
I'm probably two weeks out, but I'm in.
Ray Pinpillage · · West Egg · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 180
JLP wrote: Or at least compare yourself to them on a known course. Here's the current standard in the trail/ultra/ultralight world for finding out if you're actually fast - or just another wanker... fastestknowntime.proboards.…
You add nothing of value to this conversation. Seriously.
The Ex-Engineer · · UK · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 20

Good thread with some decent replies. I've been toying with similar ideas over the past couple of months.

A few general thoughts about going ultra-light - as mentioned by many the best way is just to take less gear. As such, my definition of a 'ultra light rack' is therefore one that is suitable for relatively easy routes but contains the absolute minimum of gear that can still cover a full range of common placements.

First, the best way to save weight is to use a shorter rope. I am a big fan of single ropes in the 35metre range which can suits a wide variety of routes.

Second, another easy way to go really light is go 'old school' and completely ditch the quickdraws. That probably means ditching medium sized nuts on wire for some on dyneema or high strength cord. If needed, fixed gear can be tied-off or clipped with a single krab.

Third, you can potentially ditch small/medium cams. Nuts and hexes are lighter. DMM Torque nuts sizes 1-3 beat any medium cams hands down in terms of weight at the expense of a smaller range and more fiddly placement. They also beat BD Hexes & WC Rockcentrics having the unique doubled dyneema sling so quickdraws or extensions are never needed. However things change in the large sizes; a Metolius size 8 UL Power Cam (150g, 48.7-77.4mm) is a far better bet than a Torque Nut 4 (146g, 54-72.2mm range).

That gives the following sort of rack which I'm much of the way to sorting out:

Harness - I've got an Edelrid Loopo edelrid.de/en/sports/produc… in XS which weighs around 230g. Even better it cost $24 (£15) from ebay. Even lighter is the Loopo Light edelrid.de/en/sports/produc…

Helmet Petzl Meteor III+ at 235g (The Meteor is proven so I'll wait a bit longer for some feedback on the Sirocco at 165g)

Rope - the shortest length possible without necessarily going stupidly thin. Something like 35metres of the new Beal Joker Unicore 9.1mm weighing 1855g.

Carabiners - 10x wiregates and 2x lockers is probably sufficient. I'll probably stick with DMM Phantom wiregates at 26g as I've got a decent number and they are already small enough. I'll also probably go with Phantom screwgates at 43g.

Slings - I'm a massive fan of Mammut Contact 8mm slings, so something like 2x60cm, 1x120cm and 1x180cm. Although not a standard length I like the 180cm length for use at belays.

Cams - A Metolius UL Powercam size 8 weighing 150g (or the Fatcam at 154g). If you want a cheaper option, you could consider a last generation WC Forged Friend size 3.5 at 168grams which actually beats the Helium at 171g.

Hexes - A DMM Torque nut 1 & 2. (The Metolius UL Powercam 8 effectively covers the range of both Torque Nuts 3 & 4)

Nuts - WC Rocks 7,8 & 9 on dyneema (or similar), plus WC Superlight rocks 4, 5 & 6.

Belay - As already mentioned the lightest standard option is probably the Mammut Fuse at 41-43g depending which figures you go on. The DMM Bugette at 24g is far lighter but only really suitable for half ropes. I would love to get my hands on a Snap Cyclops single slot belay device at 26g storrick.cnc.net/VerticalDe… but they are no longer in production.

Belay Biner - A BD Vapour Lock at 51g is the obvious option. [However I'll probably stick with my current DMM Sentinel Locksafe at 61g as these days I dislike standard screwgates for abseiling use due to too many gates unscrewing themselves.]

Nutkey - Metolius Featherlight at 20g, as already mentioned.

That's about it other than a couple of short 5mm prusiks and possibly a tiny knife and whistle.

All in, that gives personal kit (harness, helmet, belay, HMS, nutkey, prusiks etc.) coming in well under 700g, a basic rack at around 900g and rope at 1855g.

PS For anyone who thinks that rack is too small it is almost exactly what was considered standard for a basic rack in the United Kingdom in the 1980s, and is based in part on information from 'Rock Climbing' by Steve Ashton published in 1987.

John Shultz · · Osaka, Japan · Joined Dec 2008 · Points: 50
Brassmonkey wrote: And I am routinely 4-6% body fat, I have no weight to lose.
While I don't disagree with your general sentiments, almost no one can stay at 4-6% body fat for any length of time. Shooting to stay steady at 9-10% is a reasonable goal though.

[Feel free to look at my profile and say I am soft, like you did with the other cat.]

Cheers from Osaka,

john
CalStaben · · Louisville, KY · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 0

I'd like to second that under 9-10% body fat is easily achieved. As a recently retired collegiate swimmer, most of our team is under that body fat percentage and it's routine to see people 5-7%. Though, going as low as 4-5% is often unhealthy and lowers your performance. My peers that run either distance track or cross country typically keep a lower body fat percentage than the swimmers. Unless you devote an inordinate amount of time to training (i.e. 20-30 hours a week like an endurance collegiate athlete), it is quite difficult to get to these percentages.

csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330

I spent a while in a lab testing body fay percentages (among other things) in some very high level athletes; some of the top runners and cyclists in the country. I can tell you that most all athletes underestimate their percentages. My recollection is that 4-6% was out of the ordinary, even in these top-end athletes.

csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330
Brassmonkey wrote: What methods did you use?
Calipers and a hydrostatic tank.
highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion · · Colorado · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 35

I'm no expert but here is my 2¢.

The hydrostatic tank at my university was too difficult to use. I was training for tri's and had a bmi of 19 so sure I was way skinnier than now, however, we never got an accurate measurement. I measured as high as 60% and as low as negatives (the dial on the scale spun twice). Even with practice, we (the subjects) never got good at exhaling the right amount of air. The best we could do was breathe out until we landed on a weight that would correlate to a % that we'd predetermined with calipers.

The calipers were even worse, some had stretchy skin others had thick juicy skin. I got measured at the university at 2% and weeks later a 24 hour fitness measured me at 22% (along with a sales pitch).

The electrical impedance seemed to only measure hydration. Although if you only used it prior to breakfast every morning, it might at least be something you could make relative goals with.

So argue and talk all you want about who our what you measured. Short of dissection, I don't think you actually know anyone's bodyfat.

As for the gear, no need to buy brand new heavy things but to put a rack together based only on lightness is a waste.

Ben Beard · · Superior, AZ · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 215

remember to cut all the tags off your cams, harness, shoes, etc!

Nate Reno · · Highlands Ranch, CO · Joined Oct 2008 · Points: 156
The Ex-Engineer wrote:Belay Biner - A BD Vapour Lock at 51g is the obvious option. [However I'll probably stick with my current DMM Sentinel Locksafe at 61g as these days I dislike standard screwgates for abseiling use due to too many gates unscrewing themselves.]
I haven't used the BD VaporLock or Petzl Attache 3D for belaying with yet, but something like: metoliusclimbing.com/elemen…
might be easier to feed the rope over, saving some energy at an expense of ~20g.
I would probably also find some things are worth compromising functionality for weight, but others might not be - the tiny carabiners come to mind. Do you waste more time/energy fiddling w/ tiny biners to make it worth the weight savings. Sometimes things that are a small bit heavier, but make tasks quicker/easier are worth the weight for speed reasons - which I'm pretty sure is what the whole 'lightweight' argument is for in the first place.
Matt N · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 415

all you need are shoes, a chalk bag and a North Face button-up:

Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0
Matt N wrote:all you need are shoes, a chalk bag and a North Face button-up:
Should probably leave the chalk bag at home, and also replace that shirt with a beanie.
TWK · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2012 · Points: 160
Matt N wrote:all you need are shoes, a chalk bag and a North Face button-up:
And a big set of cojones . . .but they might weigh you down.
mugsy · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2011 · Points: 0
Ben B. wrote:...Still trying to figure out what stoppers would be lightest, but I think that's really getting down to a matter of a few grams. Metolius' nuts seem to be the lightest, but literally only by about 20 grams or something ridiculously unnoticeable
I don't remember the exact numbers, but the Metolius UL nuts were over 120g lighter than my Omega Pacific 1-13 set and over 100g lighter than DMM 1-11 Wallnuts.

I tried to like the Met UL nuts for a long time, but they just don't work for me.
Matt N · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 415
Ben B. wrote: shoes are aid
Fine.

Nut-free lightweight climbing:

The Ex-Engineer · · UK · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 20

Just spotted a new Camp Alp 95 harness ( camp-usa.com/products/harne… 95g in weight!) for sale cheaply on ebay here in the UK.

Currently trying to tell myself that it is over the top and unnecessary, but on the other hand it would be pretty cool in the terms of being the ultimate in lightweight gear...

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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