Carabiners for trad/alpine draws?

So I am starting to build up a trad rack and have a few things to get me started now. I got an rei gift card for Christmas and figured I would go ahead and order 20 biners since the ones I wanted were on sale. So while they are being shipped to me a light bulb goes off in my head and says "Hey, with all of those same colored/identical biners how will I know which end is the rope end/protection end?" So my question to you mountain project is can I use my carabiners interchangeably between rope end and protection end (cams, nuts, tricams only. no bolts/anchors). I know this is a big no no in sport climbing but I figured falling on a flexible cable/cam sling would put a hell of a lot less wear into a carabiner than falling on a bolt hanger.

If you're using these draws for trad it shouldn't be a problem. I could see it maybe being an issue if you fall on a wired nut, otherwise cam slings won't notch them at all. One thing you could do is keep the rope side biner in place using a hair band or o-ring like I have. This way you just unclip that biner (in my case, the gold biner) from the rest of the sling and extend before you take the draw off your harness or after you've clipped it to the pro. See photos:

I don't have time to find the link to it at 1:30am, but locking a biner onto an open sling like that is a very bad idea, it's really easy to have one strand of the sling get thru that gold biner. The O-ring will hold the biner on as though it's on the sling till you weight it.

From Petzl:

Do not use a STRING on open webbing slings

DANGER : Do not use an open webbing sling equipped with a STRING, as the potential for misuse is too high.

++1 for that link dude- nice pic. Furthermore, when I trad climb, I often end up taking biners on and off slings, sometimes a sling will end up over my head and shoulder, I'll switch stuff out, extend anchors, etc. I wouldn't want a biner stuck in my sling like that. I like the flexibility and freedom and am willing to suffer the extra time to organize and fiddle with my gear, when necessary.

Larry is on it. After much contemplation, I have found that using a string on slings is only really a good idea if it is something you are planning on fixing (correctly) for a while. Before anyone starts dogging on fixing draws, my frame of reference is Smith.

In regards to the OP, inspect your caribiners... it sounds like your on the right track.

mike seaman wrote:++1 for that link dude- nice pic. Furthermore, when I trad climb, I often end up taking biners on and off slings, sometimes a sling will end up over my head and shoulder, I'll switch stuff out, extend anchors, etc. I wouldn't want a biner stuck in my sling like that. I like the flexibility and freedom and am willing to suffer the extra time to organize and fiddle with my gear, when necessary.

Making sure your biners are marked "pro only" isn't necessary. If you fall onto a wire, you might want to inspect the biner for abnormal wear, but it is unlikely you'll find any.

the video is about bolt hangers but its sobering to see it sheath the rope. I bought two types of biners for trad draws for that reason. that and the pro end can be a really small light biner and the rope side can be larger and more comfortable to clip. I have Ange S for pro and Helium's or OZ's for the rope.
dmmclimbing.com/news/2011/1…

sullz wrote: This is kinda what I am trying to get at. If I have 20 biners on my rack all moving around between slings and pro, do I have to make sure I mark a certain set of biners as "pro only"?

I think that DMM video is pretty convincing. It seems that we all need to pay attention to the way we use our gear and what kind of condition it is in. We all know that, and judging by the fact that this particular issue doesn't often cause ropes to fail in the real world, I'd say mist people are doing a good job of staying safe.

I don't pay much attention to rope end vs gear end when I am trad climbing and use all my biners interchangeably. But any time I whip on a wire or bolt I do make sure to check the biner and if it's badly damaged I'll smooth it out with an old muddy rope or retire it to my sport rack. Yes, I do have 12-14 draws that I only use for sport and each one has a dedicated bolt end biner. I find that of all the gear I have, it's the bolt end biners of my sport draws that get the most abuse.

Be careful out there.

Typically when you're climbing trad your "Bolt End" Biner is going to be clipped to lots of different things... often the sling of a cam or cable of a nut, and you're typically not dogging all over them, so they usually stay in pretty nice shape. I do use a different color or style biner for each end and have dedicated rope-end biners, but sometimes that system gets messed up and you just use whatever biner you have left on you at the time. Its not too difficult to inspect your stuff now and then and take off any bolt dings with some emery cloth. The bolt-end-biner-rope-cut is far more likely to happen if you mis-use a sport climbing draw.

it all depends on a single questions ... will you be using your trad draws for sport or bolts where youll be whipping on em over and over again ?

its that simple ;)

Don't mix sports draw with trad draws and you'll be fine. I've heard and seen more ropes damages by sharp rocks than biners.

Mad Rock ultralight wire gates are super cheap and come in two colors, silver for the bolt end and red for the rope end. Color coded, affordable, wire gates, snatch 'em up.

Buy the black diamond OZ for your trad draws.

The rope-bearing biner could easily get cross-loaded if it isn't constrained by a rubber band, O-ring, or some other rubber holder. Because I don't use such rubbers on my alpine draws, I always use Petzl Spirits to bear the rope, because those have broad rope-friendly surfaces, no sharp edges in the corners that could cut the rope if cross-loaded, and a relatively strong rating when cross-loaded (10kN). I have no problem keeping my lightweight, wire-gate biners on the pro-clipping ends and the Spirits on the rope-bearing ends of my alpine draws. It's easy.

I get what you're saying, but a hair band is much weaker and stretchy than a Petzl String, so if the sling gets unclipped from the sling (though I've never had that happen), you're going to know it instantly - the draw wont hang straight so you'd notice that when clipping the rope. Definitely worth knowing about this danger though - every climber should know the possible dangers and limitations of their gear.

It's interesting to me that Camp sells draws this way with an open sling/o-ring setup (see here).

I don't use any of those retaining band things on my slings and I don't pay attention to which side of the sling or draw clips to what.

I've got a partner who anchors a single biner on a sling like you do, but he always wears them fully extended over his shoulder. Making alpine draws with an anchored biner is just asking for trouble.

For alpine draws (for a few extra $$) I love DMM shields, and I usually carry about 6 alpine draws with another 6 assorted. The wirelock is light and most importantly, snag free.

I also agree that with the amount of gear fiddling it can be a nuisance to designate 'rope end'/'gear end' on alpine or extendable draws. In the end I like quick and dirty with all of my slings essentially interchangeable.

Smells like a TROLL

Who on earth would mark a biner "pro end".