How do you feel about dog encounters?

I am a dog person. I like to exercise. My dog likes to exercise. She has an open schedule and is down for whatever. So we go mountain biking, backcountry skiing, and cragging together. For the most part, she is well behaved and once in a while, we'll sneak a ride on the Shoreline Trail or few routes in Ferguson Canyon. That said, some people don't like dogs/don't know how to relate to them. I think that's unfortunate because dogs have been great companions for me.

I've been ticketed by the leash police and cursed out by people like the original poster, which is a major bummer for me. I don't really care if you think my dog is annoying or if it ruins your wilderness experience. I think motorized recreation is annoying and it ruins my wilderness experience. But hey, this is the "wild west" and ATV's and snowmobiles and heliskiing and grazing on public lands aren't going anywhere...or shooting and leaving shell casings all over the place or proposals to build chairlifts through protected watersheds under flimsy pretenses. Part of being well adjusted adult is showing consideration towards others as well as compromising and tolerating their personal preferences.

There is a place for everything. For example, it's hard enough to be a climber in the Valley. A climber with a dog in the Valley is insane. But to all the people who comment "leave the dog at home" - I'd never go anywhere because that isn't a option. So I select the most dog appropriate places possible to recreate which takes me to obscure-ish places, like Dylan Wall instead of Supercrack Buttress or the Tushars instead of the central Wasatch. There I don't have to see anyone but my partners and my dog can have off-leash time with the least likelihood of pissing anyone off. When people get bent out of shape about my dog being off leash, it ruins my time, too--remember, I am a dog person, we're buds, similar interests, yadda yadda. (I can see the non-dog people rolling their eyes.) Public service announcement: dogs behave better off-leash than on-leash; less doggy anxiety.

I don't want to ruin your time or antagonize anyone with my off-leash dog. I'm not a mean spirited person. But if you run into me at Ibex and kick my dog while she's sniffing around the sagebrush, you're a fucking asshole and we'll have words. Kick some some rancher's dog and you might get shot.

Here's the rub. Seems a lot of dog owners have come to believe that dogs should have the rights of humans, but don't expect them to follow any of those same rules when it comes to their behavior.

Trained dogs at crags that are well behaved with owners that take responsibility for them - great. Owners that keep them close/leashed and have trained them well on the trail, great. Unfortunately, it seems greater than 75% of the time that isn't the case and many of them ignore leash laws and just let them run willy nilly. Guys like Chas and Kenny expect you to train for dog encounters because that is somehow my responsiblity, since they can't be bothered to keep their dog at bay. Or, know what someone else's dog intends to do or you can just "ignore" them and they magically won't bother you.

Dogs are not a part of nature, nor nature encounters. They are part of nature encounters because people take them there and are not taking responsibility for them. My nature encounters with humans can be as engaged or limited as I want them to be, and most wild animals try to avoid me so avoiding them is easy. Not so with someone else's dogs. The suggestion you just say NO or STOP to a dog and it will get them to stop doing something offensive relies on the thought they have been trained. I know someone who trained their dog in Chinese. Am I expected to throw out some Mandarin, Spanish, or French if Stop or No doesn't work? Give me a break.

Take responsibility for your dog and its actions - it is not part of nature any more than you are (unless you are living in a cabin in the woods).

And YES! I am a mean and sad person because I don't like your dog and assume it is a nice and giving being when it comes running at me with its slobbering bulk on a trail (let alone my 40 lb kid). Fortunately, there are laws against people coming up and randomly sticking their noses in my body parts or knocking me or my kids down. Weird how dog's don't understand those same laws.

Maybe I will just carry a stick.

PT: legally dogs are property. If your kid ever touches my rack, I promise not to accuse her of stealing. Or pick up a stick, smack her, and claim that I was exercising my lawful right to defend my property with force if she doesn't immediately respond to a stern "NO". Laws are one thing, common sense is another. A dick move is a dick move.

Stick? Really?

Really PT, you get the feeling that you are somehow more one with nature than a dog is? Dogs, being direct descendants of wolves are way more in touch with nature than you, your clothes, your backpack full of gear, or your footprints for that matter will ever be. My dog is on a leash where it is required by law. Maybe your kids should be too.

Hey PT,when it is -2, my dogs trot outside without so much as a pair of slippers for their morning constitutional... Can your kid do that? My dogs couldnt care less about any material/consumable good... You been around a kid like that lately? My dogs would vote for 365 climbing days a year... If your kid is like that, then you are one lucky guy.... Yes some dogs suck because their owners suck. Some kids? Well, the same holds true.

One bit of advice- if dogs bug you so much, stay in places where there are waaaay too many people. Those seem to be the places where dogs are regulated into a sad life on a tether, so people can multiply endlessly and swim in their own detritus.... And you can always road trip to any national park. They've regulated dogs out of those places too....

I enjoy dog encounters. Sometimes I grab them and give them a quick humping, just to let them know I care; or sometimes I just lick their face. I'm like a dog whisperer.

I feel so bad for you poor pitiful people who have to put up with the horrible scourge of dogs at the crags. Go to a climbing gym, I don't think they allow the horrible beasts in most.

Killis the Dog gets UNLEASHED on Eva!
youtube.com/watch?v=hzaoNEG…

paintrain: dogs don't speak english. most dogs know a few words. know what really does it for them? tone of voice. a stern "hey dog!" works just as well as "fuck off!" to get the dog's attention. no dog will out-and-out ignore you because it only understands bulgarian. also: i was kind enough to train the girl-dog with the command "fuck off". she responds by stopping, sitting, and looking remorseful. it's the desired dog reaction to the natural human reaction. you're welcome.

dog haterz: don't hit my dogs. i have three. i don't have to threaten to hit you if you hit them, they'll take care of it. when they're feeling spiteful, one will pee on your things, one will eat all your food, and one will bark incessantly at you and chew your leg off if you even look at me threateningly. their hobbies include shedding, stealing carrots, and digging holes. this response might make you feel justified and you might think 'oh, clearly they are bad dogs.' they're not, they're just responding to the anger they feel directed at them. quite reasonable.

these horrible animals are the same creatures that like to be petted, snuggled, and will make friends with the most ardent of "not-a-dog-persons". i keep them around because they're terrific friends and companions and they keep the bed warm.

be nice, and if my dogs are truly being pests to you, ask me nicely, and i'll likely assist.

i'm not interested in fending off your unleashed children, either.

Blake Cash wrote:Dogs are way more enjoyable at the crag than 75% of the people I ever encounter.

so so true. Id much rather kick somebodys whiney kid than their whiney dog

j.lo wrote: dog haterz: don't hit my dogs. i have three. i don't have to threaten to hit you if you hit them, they'll take care of it. when they're feeling spiteful, one will pee on your things, one will eat all your food, and one will bark incessantly at you and chew your leg off if you even look at me threateningly. their hobbies include shedding, stealing carrots, and digging holes. this response might make you feel justified and you might think 'oh, clearly they are bad dogs.' they're not, they're just responding to the anger they feel directed at them. quite reasonable.

I'm nice to dogs, and I generally walk right past them. If one is threatening and I would like to pass, I pass, but I do it with a rock the size of a brick in one hand and ready. Hope you read that the way I'm saying it: the owner made the first play by leaving a questionable dog on the trail and now the next move is up to the dog. So far I've never had to smash one's skull in, but I will if I get attacked. Self defense is legit. Bear that in mind. If the owner comes after me for defending myself from a dog, the owner is subject to self defense as well.
If your dog is friendly, there should be no problem. If it bites, I will promise you that you are getting a ticket, at the least.

The biggest mistake that most owners make is not realizing that they DO NOT KNOW how their dog feels/acts when they are not present. Betas feel/act different when the alpha isn't there.

The lame excuse that your dog is nasty because it senses a bad attitude/person is total crap. The reason why prayer didn't cure your aunt's cancer is that she didn't really "have faith." Sure, there are a few jerks who taunt dogs, but most are just minding their business. An owner should not be relying on the idea that the average person walking by is a dog whisperer. No more so than leaving dangerous chemicals or tools laying around. ("Well, so and so shouldn't have done that with them.") The person who takes the dog somewhere bears the responsibility for them. If you don't believe me, ask the judge...

The most common annoyance with dogs is actually the ones that get tied to the base and incessantly bark. I alpha rolled one of my pals dogs for that a few times and he won't do it anymore (in front of me). Some problems behaviors have a easy solution, some don't. But people believe what they want. Some are bad owners, some are not.

Tony B wrote: I alpha rolled one of my pals dogs for that a few times and he won't do it anymore (in front of me). Some problems behaviors have a easy solution, some don't. But people believe what they want. Some are bad owners, some are not.

I prefer the alpha kick over the roll myself, less dirt, slobber and the same affect.

I'm not gonna get involved in this shit show, but, no pun intended, i will answer the OP's question about poo bags. They're left when a dog drops one early in the hike to be picked up on the way back instead of carried the entire round trip. Often, another dog owner picks up a bag that wasn't theirs on their way out and usually, the person whose bag was picked up grabs somebody else's. That is all, let the show continue.

I think it is kind of ridiculous for you to complain about this in the Salt Lake area. If you are really that upset about seeing dogs, both big and little don't allow them, go there instead and quit whining.

Most of the areas I frequent have leash laws. Dogs off leash are the worst when I'm running. Nothing freaks me out like being chased when I'm already worn out and tired. After a few near misses, I started carrying pepper spray. If a dog comes running at me it's gonna get sprayed in the face. If it comes up to me slow and wandering around I'll spray the ground NEAR it; then they wander away.

I don't worry about it as much out climbing. I'm a sport climber so I generally have a stick clip with me. Person with aluminum pole vs. dog is a fight I don't want, but I'll take it rather than get bit.

For the people that will hate on me for this behavior I say this. If your dog bites somebody and you are forced to put it down, how awful will you feel that you didn't just follow the leash law? As much as you like dogs more than people the law is usually on the people side of the issue.

Jonathan Lee wrote: I'm not gonna get involved in this shit show, but, no pun intended, i will answer the OP's question about poo bags. They're left when a dog drops one early in the hike to be picked up on the way back instead of carried the entire round trip. Often, another dog owner picks up a bag that wasn't theirs on their way out and usually, the person whose bag was picked up grabs somebody else's. That is all, let the show continue.

If that was true, then we wouldn't be seeing the same bags in the same spot, and never disappearing.

I got attacked by an 80 lb Rottweiler when I was a 60 lb kid and I once came down from a 26 mile hike to a pack of 3 dogs that were all barking and snarling and snapping their teeth. I've met a handful of snarling, barking dogs, but those two incidents are the most extreme encounters I've had in a lifetime of interacting with dogs. I didn't hit any of them and I walked away unscathed from the pack of 3 and with only minor scrapes and bites from the Rottweiler. The only reason I can think of for why someone would want to pepper spray/kick a dog as a "preventative" measure is a volatile brew of fear and ignorance.

Also, a fact of life: if you come off as a whining/nagging citizen cop to owners when telling them to keep their dog on a leash, they will most often begin to dislike you, thereby weakening the effect of any of your recommendations. So - according to me, being a dick to dogs or dog owners will not solve the problem, so how can we solve it?

By not being a dick. Be happy when the dog approaches you - love the dog with genuine love - and be happy when the dog owner approaches you. You probably aren't going to change that person you just met by telling them your beliefs on leash laws, but if you are genuinely Good and the dog jumps up on you or barks at you or whatever you're afraid of, the owner will see this and feel extremely upset that their dog was rude to a genuinely Good person. You can even exaggerate it a bit - if the dog jumps up on you, lose your balance and fall over but not in a melodramatic way. If the dog barks at you and the owner is within sight, back up and act scared for the owner to see. They will probably tell you "oh, don't worry, Sparky is a sweetheart, aren't you, Sparky?" and you should reply with a nervous, smiling chuckle (not a sarcastic one), step a few feet off the trail and walk around them, looking at the dog nervously but smiling and, with a shaky voice, wishing the owner a good day.

I know from experience that those are some of the most transformative moments for dog owners: when they realize their dog has been an asshole to a Good person. Now, all this is directed at the dog-passer-bys and not the dog owners because that was the nature of the question in the original post, but rest assured that I have recommendations for dog owners as well. To be genuinely good, you must do a careful evaluation of your dog - know that not everybody loves dogs as much as you, yet, and ask: is your dog a good ambassador for the breed? Will your dog leave people wanting to meet more dogs? If yes, then unclip that leash and let 'em roam without hesitation, knowing that your dog would be like an interracial marriage between MLK Jr. and Mother Teresa in the 60's - a shining example of how there is nothing to fear of this cultural movement that is foreign to them. If no, then, as I'm sure you already do, exercise a bit of caution, feel free to let your dog off leash and try to put them on leash when someone is walking by to help these non-dog people become desensitized without any traumatic events that can revert them back to their original position.

What I find most interesting is how extreme people get on Mountain Project, when my encounters with "you all" in the crags are nothing like that. The gulf between our hypothetical and our actual reactions to dogs is a large one, and thankfully our actual reactions are far more conducive to peaceful crags than the ones we're seeing here about kicking dogs, pepper spraying pooches, and beating mutts with a stick.

Live, let live, and love. A lot of people want to use the crags and they all want to use them in their own way. Some want to climb sport, some want to climb trad, some want to boulder at the base, some want to look for raptor nests or petroglyphs or fossils or what have you, and some people want to get themselves outside to climb while also letting their beloved dogs get a taste of that freedom of the hills in their own way.

All dogs are little angels:

CDC - Dog Bite: Facts
www.cdc.gov/.../dog-bites/dogbite-factsheet.html
"Man and woman's best friend bites more than 4.7 million people a year, and key experts believe that public education can help prevent these bites.
Each year, 800,000 Americans seek medical attention for dog bites; half of these are children.
Of those injured, 386,000 require treatment in an emergency department and about 16 die. The rate of dog bite-related injuries is highest for children ages 5 to 9 years, and the rate decreases as children age. Almost two thirds of injuries among children ages four years and younger are to the head or neck region."

So step back and consider for a moment that that person who is scared of dogs might have perfectly good reason to be.
I know someone who freezes when she sees a threatening dog.
Gee maybe it was because one tried to chew her face off as a baby.
And you blame her not the owner if she reacts to a threat in fear?

Tony B wrote:CDC - Dog Bite: Facts cdc.gov/.../dog-bites/dogbi…

CDC human-fight facts:

cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrht…

This is why I am prepared to defend myself against any person walking along the trail. My chronic fear is the key to my lifelong happiness.

On a more serious note, I definitely agree that some people are traumatized by a past experience with dogs. I think that is tragic, and I don't judge people if they are afraid of dogs. However, I encourage them to try to conquer that phobia, that generic fear, in the same way I encourage people to overcome a fear of Muslims post 9/11, and I am happy to use my own dog to help with the desensitization.

Pepper spray can't deter this dreamboat.

Dogs fighting with eachother is the most problematic thing I've encountered. I've had blood drawn trying to break up fights, and my roommate had 1/3 of his thumb bitten off doing the same thing. Just food for thought...

I was ice climbing (sort of), near Boulder yesterday. There were three dogs at the base running around dodging falling chunks and running all around us and getting in our way while walking on ice in crampons... The owners were very considerate and offered to tie them up, but the damage had been done. Don't bring dogs ice climbing maybe? Can we all agree on that?