ABC climbing rope belay anchor
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I'm interested in all opinions and comments, looking for a "Shake Down" of my methodology. |
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Let the games begin;D |
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The video doesn't work on my phone but I think its bad ass that you are customizing/creating different/unique or possibly new ways. I am going to 'disect' your pics; I love playing around/figuring out new methods. Keep it up man! |
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Your two point anchor looked familiar. It's not really new. |
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wivanoff wrote:Your two point anchor looked familiar. It's not really new. See here Anchoring.pdf Scroll down to "The Direct Tie In" on page 6 and picture 6. Chauvin used a fig 8 instead of an Alpine Butterfly. Yes, I had seen the same thing with the figure Eight on A Bight years ago in a book or mag. No claim of originality here, I'm sure it's all been done before. I prefer the Alpine Butterfly because; 1) It is easier to tie a big loop. A large loop is needed to incorporate clove hitches in the loop. 2) It is easy to adjust the size and/or location of the loop in the Alpine Butterfly after it is tied. 3) It is very easy to untie the Alpine Butterfly (even after it has been loaded) wivanoff wrote:I like the method that RGold has posted in the past. RGold Anchor Your 3-point anchor uses 4 carabiners. 5 if you add a redirect. RGold's method uses 4 carabiners. 5 if you add a redirect. I do like building anchors with the rope. Thanks for posting.I used a method similar to this originally, I first saw it in "Freedom of the Hills". It differed in that it used the belay loop of the harness as the "Power Point" instead of the Alpine Butterfly loop. If you look carefully at the RGold picture (RGold Anchor) you'll see that you do need an additional carabiner to hold a clove hitch between two pieces of protection (near the number "3"). I guess theoretically you could also hang your belay device off of this carabiner, though you would have the risk of dropping the clove hitch when changing belay devices. I still sometimes use this method (it is a little easier if it's going to be a hanging belay). Most of the time I am faster with my method and find it easier to get the pieces equalized. Thanks for the comments! |
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How many feet of rope does this usually consume? |
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Bud Martin wrote:How many feet of rope does this usually consume?About 12 feet, that's a down side with tying in with the rope. Turns my 70m into a 60m. Still I'd rather pull 10 meters more rope up than have a cordellete hanging from my harness. Reduced to typing about climbing Bud? You must be done dirt bagging and back to the real world. Looks like you had an amazing trip! At least you have ice climbing at home, my situation is more grave. Wife has banned me from ice, so it's gym climbing :(, Aiding crappy sandstone, and praying for 40 degree days for me. |
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Using your rope in the anchor is really bad for rescue situations. If you need to do a counterbalance carry or do hauling, you'll sort of be screwed. You should really be carrying a cordalette for sketchy situations anyway. |
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MTKirk wrote:Still I'd rather pull 10 meters more rope up than have a cordellete hanging from my harness. Reduced to typing about climbing Bud? You must be done dirt bagging and back to the real world.I guess my strategy is to keep a double sling on my harness and use that with draws or whatever to make things happen, or just carry the cord. I am home in Wisconsin for the holidays then back to the desert to climb some granite. The good part is that living in my truck is turning into the real world... |
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Steve R wrote:Using your rope in the anchor is really bad for rescue situations. If you need to do a counterbalance carry or do hauling, you'll sort of be screwed. You should really be carrying a cordalette for sketchy situations anyway.Yes and no. I agree, a cordelette anchor is really useful in rescue, and really don't mind carrying one or more. I like them, but you can always cut away the anchor portion of the rope if needed and leave it behind. The main rope can also be used for subsequent anchors on a multi rap descent, but your 70 m rope could become a 60, then 50 then 40 etc as you bail. The other aspect of this is the shelf of a rope tied anchor rarely has a real honest to goodness multi-loop shelf which is really helpful for rescue. |
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Ben Hicks wrote: you can always cut away the anchor portion of the rope if needed and leave it behind. The main rope can also be used for subsequent anchors on a multi rap descent, but your 70 m rope could become a 60, then 50 then 40 etc as you bail. The other aspect of this is the shelf of a rope tied anchor rarely has a real honest to goodness multi-loop shelf which is really helpful for rescue.In a single-rope, multi-rap rescue scenario it would be quite complicated to build a subsequent, lower rap anchor incorporating the rope you are rappelling on, especially tandem rappelling with your patient- not to mention your rap distance will be reduced by whatever length of rope is used in the anchor. Makes much more sense in this scenario to build subsequent anchors without incorporating your rope. Having to cut 12 feet off at every station would leave you with some pretty short rappels, not much of a rack when/if you reached the ground, and take a lot more time to build all those additional anchors. Better to build anchors independent of the rope, conserve your entire rope, and keep options open. |
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Steve Levin wrote: In a single-rope, multi-rap rescue scenario it would be quite complicated to build a lower rap anchor incorporating the rope you are rappelling on, especially tandem rappelling with your patient- and your rap distance will be reduced by whatever length of rope is used in the anchor. Makes much more sense in this scenario to build subsequent anchors without incorporating your rope and having to cut 12 feet off at every station... would leave you with some pretty short rappels, not much of a rack when/if you reached the ground, and take a lot more time.Totally agree, which is why I do carry extra cordalettes on multi- pitch. Just saying that if you don't have the gear you want you can still keep going. Sucks, but it's not game over. You can also improvise with other slings etc, whatever you have that will work, but ultimately if you have to build anchors for descent you are going to lose gear, so: Steve Levin wrote: not much of a rack when/if you reached the ground,Circumstantial but if you have to use gear to build anchors to get your patient down isn't this point moot? |
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Ben Hicks wrote: Circumstantial but if you have to use gear to build anchors to get your patient down isn't this point moot?Absolutely. My point was you may not reach the ground. |
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Whole lotta editing going on! |
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Ben Hicks wrote: you can always cut away the anchor portion of the rope if needed and leave it behind.Not to beat a dead horse, and I understand your thought process, but if my rope were incorporated into the anchor and I needed to descend in a rescue scenario, I would rebuild the anchor using slings from the protection points my rope is attached to, create a master point independent of the rope, then use my entire rope to descend. |
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Steve Levin wrote: Not to beat a dead horse, and I understand your thought process, but if my rope were incorporated into the anchor and I needed to descend in a rescue scenario, I would rebuild the anchor using slings from the protection points my rope is attached to, create a master point independent of the rope, then use my entire rope to descend.I would too if I had the slings. Or, if quick care was needed i.e. descent to the patient prior to setting up counterbalance rappel, it would be a great opportunity to retrieve gear to use after ascending back to the anchor. It would be unlikely to cut part of the rope off for such a purpose. It is just a resource if needed, and back to Steve R's post, you aren't ultimately "screwed" as in game over just because you used the rope as anchor. Just "sort of". Sorry to the OP for the digression. As far as your butterfly/clove anchor, yeah it works. More cumbersome to set up to me than my own version with rope, cloves and a EQ-ing between 3 pieces with doubled overhand. I like the redundancy of a double loop overhand as well rather than master point with single strand. Is it likely realistically that the single strand loop will be a problem? No. I just like the redundancy for piece of mind. And if I tie in to that master point, yes it takes an extra biner. I usually build cordalette anchors though. |
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I agree that a cordelette/sling anchor works great when leading in blocks or if I'm doing all the leading. However, a rope anchor works very nicely when swapping leads. I use either depending on the situation. |
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wivanoff wrote:If I had to ascend the rope to rescue a leader, build a new anchor and counterbalance rappel back down, having initially made an anchor with the rope at my belay station would not make one bit of difference.Correct, however, different if it is your second below you that you need to rescue, they have loaded your anchor and that is your bail point. Anyway, I am not in any way advocating cutting up your rope it if you can avoid it. It's just a valid option if you need it. Yes, everything being discussed are matters of choice, and having more methods at your disposal can help in different circumstances. Many means to the same ends. Yep, all matters of choice. That's all. |
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It's ok---I like my method better, but of course I would, wouldn't I? I can rig mine faster than shown in the video, and I'm not obliged to correctly estimate and/or adjust the length of a loop that will eventually be clove-hitched to two of the anchor points. |
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rgold wrote:It's ok---I like my method better, but of course I would, wouldn't I? I can rig mine faster than shown in the video, and I'm not obliged to correctly estimate and/or adjust the length of a loop that will eventually be clove-hitched to two of the anchor points.I dunno. I see that as kind of a wash. There's slack between the cloves for adjustment. Just make the loop big enough to begin with to allow for the adjustment. I see that slack between the cloves as a good place to add another cloved biner for a redirect point - similar to what you showed in your rope anchor. I think your method is a bit more straightforward. But, I haven't tried/practiced MTKirk's method. |
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Ben Hicks wrote: I would too if I had the slings. Or, if quick care was needed i.e. descent to the patient prior to setting up counterbalance rappel, it would be a great opportunity to retrieve gear to use after ascending back to the anchor. It would be unlikely to cut part of the rope off for such a purpose. It is just a resource if needed, and back to Steve R's post, you aren't ultimately "screwed" as in game over just because you used the rope as anchor. Just "sort of". Sorry to the OP for the digression.Totally agree. Apologies also to the OP for getting off-track. ABC, clove-hitch tie-in, Rich Goldstone's system, cordelettes... all good- the more tools in the tool kit, the better.... |