Fall in the BRC last week?

Randy W. wrote:I'd like to see an accident comparison per climber visit... It would be interesting to see if a statistic difference exists between inside and out.

It's just about impossible to get decent statistics on accident rates at outdoor climbing areas. Accident reporting is haphazard at best, and estimated numbers of climber visits are usually either non-existent or wild-assed guesses, except in a few tightly-controlled areas such as the Gunks.

JLP wrote:Humility and understanding that an accident can happen to anyone at any time is the first step.

Some years ago I was taking a lead-climbing test at Joe Rockhead's in Toronto. I was halfway up the climb when the gym employee supervising the test asked me in a calm voice to downclimb carefully. Turns out my belayer had threaded his GriGri backwards... and none of us (including the gym employee) had noticed until then.

Martin le Roux wrote:. . . my belayer had threaded his GriGri backwards... and none of us (including the gym employee) had noticed until then.

Sadly, I wouldn't have noticed. I don't know how to use a GriGri, because I use a belay device that is probably impossible to use incorrectly.

I've used an outdated, archaic, primitive Sticht belay plate since I bought it when I was 15, in the 1970s. People who don't know what it is laugh at it and me. They were born long after I bought it.

I love its simplicity, ease of use, security and light weight. What could go wrong?

JLP wrote: Just a little FYI for ya - the people who do know laugh even harder, especially when paired with rigid friends and mariachis as a fasion statement while queued up with a bunch of noobs at the base of an ancient trade route. The fact is, most climbers tossed that old crap in the garbage 20 years ago when the Lowe Tuber came out.

Troll! Such demeaning hostility!

I was pointing out that most of the time, simpler is better and often safer. Hell, it can't be threaded backward like a GiGi, or whatever you 21st century climbers call that new-fangled contraption.

The belay plate works, and works well. So does the small end of my figure eight descender when used in the same manner. (Can't wait for the howls of disapproval on that!)

And, yeah, it's funny--you're right, I still use my rigid Friends for the same reason: they work. (Rigid friends have been the subject of more than one thread here). But I don't know about any mariachis as a fashion statement.

It'd be more enlightening to politely explain the deficiencies of this time-proven belay device. I saw no reason to toss it and buy a Tuber. Maybe its revival could become a movement?

¡Viva los amigos rigido, y mariachis tambien!

Only if it's the stitch plate upgrade with the spring. I was so happy to trade in my old one (that got locked down all the friggin time) for the new fangled one with the spring. Yes, I've been climbing about '79. Really wish I knew what happened to my springy stitch plate.

No, sorry, that wasn't me. The picture of the guy with the fur helmet isn't me.

As it happens, Friday's accident victim is someone I know and have climbed with. He's well into his 60s and has as much experience as anyone else I've climbed with in Colorado. When I've climbed with him he's always been a safe and attentive partner. A mutual friend was nearby at the time and told me the victim had been using the autobelays when he forgot to attach himself to one of them and then let go near the top of the wall to descend. I don't know what distractions he may have had at the start of that pitch, but I do know that when using an autobelay the climber doesn't usually have someone else checking their setup. The accident resulted in a trip to the ICU with broken spinal vertebrae, internal injuries and more, with the outcome uncertain at this time.

I climb at movement about 1x per week all winter.

It's amazing the things you see at the gym. When I see someone's skillset is off, I alert staff. They are usually pretty good about checking on the questionable climbers. In one case, the folks were asked to leave. I don't like to be the cause of ending someone's climbing fun, but I don't want to be landed on either. I hope you all do the same.

Having worked at a climbing gym before, it's remarkable the amount of incompetence I have witnessed, and the hubris folks have to believe they won't get hurt. Giving those folks 30 yards is all you can hope to do, inside or outside.

It doesn't surprise me that someone takes a grounder 1x per month at Movement. The place breeds contempt. Gravity is to be respected, and I think it's easy to be distracted with the false sense of safety any gym brings. It's not the gym's fault, they seem to do what they can to mitigate the safety issues. Missing auto-belays I think are an indication of this philosophy. I've seen more mishaps with top-ropers and autobelays than anywhere else. Stick to the overhang and you are probably in better company.

Whenever I use the autobelays at City Rock here in the Springs, the whole process of hooking up to it is so very integral to doing it I'm constantly aware of its presence. I feel the spring tugging on the webbing when I climb. I also like to downclimb instead of pitching off and letting it lower me. Just don't really like trusting it that much.

Could someone explain to me how you could not be clipped into an autobelay yet think you're on belay?? I can see if you didnt complete your knot, you might think all is well as the rope is moving with you. But with an autobelay you're either clipped in or you're soloing. How do you miss the fact that NOTHING is attached to your harness the entire way up the wall???

Derek Lawrence wrote:Could someone explain to me how you could not be clipped into an autobelay yet think you're on belay?? I can see if you didnt complete your knot, you might think all is well as the rope is moving with you. But with an autobelay you're either clipped in or you're soloing. How do you miss the fact that NOTHING is attached to your harness the entire way up the wall???

I would like to know this as well, its like someone saying they got in a car crash because they forgot to steer the car... Maybe it didn't have an autolocker and he forgot to lock it?

barnaclebob wrote: I would like to know this as well, its like someone saying they got in a car crash because they forgot to steer the car... Maybe it didn't have an autolocker and he forgot to lock it?

I have seen people clip them into their harness and have the belay loop webbing caught in the gate, so that the gate did not fully shut and lock. They did not notice before they started climbing and luckily one was stopped by someone else who did notice; the other had the biner come off and the line zip up to the auto-belay, they kept calm and downclimbed before weighting the system. We had an accident here at a local gym and this has been attributed as the likely cause as well.

Derek Lawrence wrote:Could someone explain to me how you could not be clipped into an autobelay yet think you're on belay??

The cognitive dissonance begins in the cerebral cortex. Essentially the subject is temporarily unable to regenerate with accuracy or urgency the immediate past in his/her present consciousness. A false recollection of clipping into the autobelay, readily available to the processes of decision which motivate action by muscle memory and temporally juxtaposed re-creations of said processes in the not-so-distant past, may delude the subject into falsely believing they are good to go. This false pre-suppostion is assimilated into the immediate recall of the subject, and as their attention is then consumed with the action of 'sending, no notice is made of their error.

Nice summation of how it all works in the brain there, Matt. Know this: shit is fucked up. Stupid brains.

TWK wrote: Sadly, I wouldn't have noticed. I don't know how to use a GriGri, because I use a belay device that is probably impossible to use incorrectly. I've used an outdated, archaic, primitive Sticht belay plate since I bought it when I was 15, in the 1970s. People who don't know what it is laugh at it and me. They were born long after I bought it. I love its simplicity, ease of use, security and light weight. What could go wrong?

It actually might be a good idea to use a gri gri on routes where there is a potential for rock fall. In a situation where loose rock comes down on you, it's nice to know that you can take your hand off of the brake if you absolutely must (or if you get knocked out, you won't drop your partner.)

It is a little disconcerting though to see beginners using gri gris before ATCs in the gym and keeping their hands dangerously close to the camming mechanism and not consistently keeping their brake hand on. I think everyone oughta start out with a simple device to learn the basics. I'm not familiar with the sticht plate, but it seems like the mechanics are the same as the ATC but maybe the device itself is not quite as structurally solid.

Partners should ALWAYS double check each other. On every climb, inside or outside, regardless of experience level, age, equipment, free soloing prowess, redpoint level, ball sac size, etc...

That is why the auto belays are so dangerous. No one but you idiot self to help you. I have yet to climb on an auto belay without first climbing up a few feet and weighting the system to make sure it is in working order. I'm surprised they don't come with a tether that you have to release AFTER clipped in. Every time I put it on I'm pretty sure the damn thing is going to slip out of my hand and go flying up.

With experience one gains knowledge, but with repetition one risks carelessness.

To add to Matt's lucid reply-

It's the nature of human brains to automate frequently repeated tasks, that's why folks can drive cars and perform for Cirque de Soleil.

Doing 10 autobelays every lunch hour for weeks will get anyone to automate the task.

When performing an automatic task, the mind can drift elsewhere. In fact, I would say it's impossible to ALWAYS have attention present during these automatic processes. So a certain risk of screwing up is always going to be present. Some habits can decrease the risk, but not eliminate it.

Having a partner check after you've tied in helps cut down the risk, but sooner or later both people are going to screw up. Then if you fall, the pundits will point out how careless you were for not triple checking by posting a cellphone picture of your tie in knot on MP.

Climbing on an autobelay raises the risk, but nowhere near leading hard ice, skiing the backcountry or countless other worthwhile activities.

csproul wrote: I have seen people clip them into their harness and have the belay loop webbing caught in the gate, so that the gate did not fully shut and lock. They did not notice before they started climbing and luckily one was stopped by someone else who did notice; the other had the biner come off and the line zip up to the auto-belay, they kept calm and downclimbed before weighting the system. We had an accident here at a local gym and this has been attributed as the likely cause as well.

the gyms i go to usually have 2 opposed lockers ... when yr clipping 2 of em in it reduces the chance of both getting caught .... and you are forced to take the extra time to clip the second one and hopefully pay more attention

self checks are the most important thing of all of course

if one always sees shitty belaying ... the staff should be patrolling the floor to look for that as well ...

i suspect the best way to get gyms to strictly enforce "safe" practices is simply to make it a requirement for them to post a writeup of any accidents/incidents as well as the incidents per visitor stats right on the front desk ...

theyll have a very strong incentive to reduce this as much as possible when the birthday moms/dads come in with their kids and see it ...

itll also be a great learning tool ...

Clearly what's needed here is to ban auto belays and rewoven bowlines.

;)

The humbling realization that every single one of us is human and will make a mistake eventually is hard on the ego. It's easier to call someone incompetent rather than look at your own shortcomings.