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soloist for leading trad???

nbrown · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 7,718

"i did a handfull of tests with a loaded haulbag to simulate traversing falls with the soloist in the late 90's or early 2000's and it failed miserably. also, it doesn't catch very consistently on slab falls (the jerk rate isn't able to engage the cam). for this reason i quit using it."

Slim, it sounds like you're describing the silent partner? I had a lot of problems with that unit myself, which is why I went back to using the soloist. With the soloist, it's the angle in which the rope runs through the device/cam relative to the angle of the rock that is relevant with it's ability to catch. I do a lot of solo climbing on slab and it's definitely something that is always in the back of my mind. It's easily demonstrated on low angle slab when just hanging in a vertical orientation will disengage the device.

As Ed said, tie back up knots. The crux on hard routes is timing the knots so that they can be unclipped from the best stances and not in the middle of the crux sequences.

Also, for aid (I do a lot of mixed aid and free) I just unclip the soloist from my chest (clip a biner through the hole), then let it hang. That, in theory, will prevent the chest harness from disengaging the unit if you fall upside down. But you'll have to manually feed the rope (not a problem with aid). This isn't perfect but it's good for routes that involve mostly free with some aid.

Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
MTKirk wrote: I'd love to try the Kong Kisa in this & other applications. Have you fallen on one? How'd it feel? Did you tie it on a separate line between two loops? I find I'm as fast with the clove hitches as with a device, paranoia about the the thing not working slows me down to a crawl while I quadruple check everything & tremble with fear ;)
I haven't, I use a screamer in a loop off the anchor when I'm concerned about it which isn't often.

I've free lead rope-soloed with cloves and it is anything but fast. With my Eddy I do pitches at somewhere between quarter to a third faster than I do them with partners and we generally move pretty fast as is. I also link pitches I wouldn't link with a partner. I regularly do one six pitch route as three 60m pitches and do it car-to-car way, way faster than my time with any of my partners.
slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103
nbrown wrote:"i did a handfull of tests with a loaded haulbag to simulate traversing falls with the soloist in the late 90's or early 2000's and it failed miserably. also, it doesn't catch very consistently on slab falls (the jerk rate isn't able to engage the cam). for this reason i quit using it." Slim, it sounds like you're describing the silent partner?
nope, soloist.
Doug Wolfe · · NJ · Joined Jun 2012 · Points: 120

Please don't beat me up too bad but how are you guys tying your back up knots??? It took me forever cause I stack my rope in a 20 liter pack and pre tie the knots every 8 or so feet give or take. Is there an easier way????

Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
D.E.W. wrote:Please don't beat me up too bad but how are you guys tying your back up knots??? It took me forever cause I stack my rope in a 20 liter pack and pre tie the knots every 8 or so feet give or take. Is there an easier way????
I don't, but that's another personal decision and one, oddly enough, I make for safety's sake. But again, that's just me.
kenr · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 16,608
D.E.W. wrote:how are you guys tying your back up knots??? It took me forever cause I stack my rope in a 20 liter pack and pre tie the knots every 8 or so feet give or take. Is there an easier way????
One recommended method is to tie a clove hitch around a carabiner as a backup knot -- because then you can remove the knot by just unclipping the biner.

Easier way? Tie fewer knots - or No backup knots.

There's lots of ways to get seriously harmed out there ...
(1) fall soloing "lead" and your self-belay device fails.
(2) fall leading with partner, but thru mis-communication or inattention, your human partner fails.
(3) fall soloing because you started the next (easy) move but one of your backup knots caught on something and prevented you from latching the hold you were reaching for. Then your self-belay device held your fall but not before you hit a protruding rock -- so now you're bleeding rapidly, trying to extricate your mobile phone, hoping it will then get voice reception so you won't have to somehow tap out a text -- Never would have happened if you'd been climbing free-solo with no rope at all.

Pretty tricky to quantify those risks.

Want to play it safe?
how about ... Stay home and read climbing forums on the web.
Medic741 · · Des Moines, IA (WTF) · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 265

Awesome link loved the comments from other readers complaining about not understanding the lingo an what a bs article haha.

This is something very interested in. Thank for the wealth of information guys!

MTKirk · · Billings, MT · Joined Dec 2011 · Points: 245
D.E.W. wrote:Please don't beat me up too bad but how are you guys tying your back up knots??? It took me forever cause I stack my rope in a 20 liter pack and pre tie the knots every 8 or so feet give or take. Is there an easier way????
Since I don't use a device, this might not help you but..., I keep at least one loop of rope hanging between lockers attached to my harness (two loops is safer but then you need another locker). The rest of the rope just hangs down below me. Typically I just drop one clove hitch to advance the rope past the next piece of pro, then retie another clove behind the one(s) still hanging form my harness. You can add more lockers and loops if you have a longer section to get through before you can retie your cloves. Mostly, I just hang from a piece (Fifi or draw) to retie knots when needed. Occasionally I will slide a clove hitch to get more rope length, but if you fell with your fingers in the clove hitch...YOUCH! I don't lead rope solo very often. I occasionally practice the technique so it's in my bag of tricks when I need to use it. My approach is to use only things I would have with me on a typical multi-pitch climb.

If I really wanted to do a lot of this, which I find strangely appealing, I would probably look into a method like Healyje uses. I actually think it could be very safe and efficient as long as you are totally focused and maintain control.
nbrown · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 7,718

D.E.W.,

There are several different ways to go about setting up a rope-solo system. Obviously, different systems will dictate a number of different variations in details such as using back up knots, and how frequently you'll need them, etc. I've logged a huge amount of real-world time on my soloist and am quite comfortable climbing very close to my limit (low 12's) of any style (slab to overhanging, trad to bolted). So, if you'd like help with any specific details, I'd be happy to offer at least one person's opinion on what seems to work rather well - just send me a pm.

Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
nbrown wrote:D.E.W., There are several different ways to go about setting up a rope-solo system. Obviously, different systems will dictate a number of different variations in details such as using back up knots, and how frequently you'll need them, etc. I've logged a huge amount of real-world time on my soloist and am quite comfortable climbing very close to my limit (low 12's) of any style (slab to overhanging, trad to bolted). So, if you'd like help with any specific details, I'd be happy to offer at least one person's opinion on what seems to work rather well.
nbrown, maybe write up a Soloist article for here or RC. It has been used to do a rope-solo of Astroman so it definitely has a following. That said, an old, very experienced partner broke four ribs in a horizontal body-orientation fall where the device never locked. But then they all have issues and no rope-solo system is perfect.
MTKirk · · Billings, MT · Joined Dec 2011 · Points: 245
nbrown wrote:D.E.W., There are several different ways to go about setting up a rope-solo system. Obviously, different systems will dictate a number of different variations in details such as using back up knots, and how frequently you'll need them, etc. I've logged a huge amount of real-world time on my soloist and am quite comfortable climbing very close to my limit (low 12's) of any style (slab to overhanging, trad to bolted). So, if you'd like help with any specific details, I'd be happy to offer at least one person's opinion on what seems to work rather well - just send me a pm.
I'm definitely interested in your approach, if you take the time to type it up why not post it here for everyone (pictures help too). I'm looking to step up my system to one where I can actually climb a decent multi-pitch in a day. The more info I have the better!
nbrown · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 7,718
Healyje wrote: nbrown, maybe write up a Soloist article for here or RC. It has been used to do a rope-solo of Astroman so it definitely has a following. That said, an old, very experienced partner broke four ribs in a horizontal body-orientation fall where the device never locked. But then they all have issues and no rope-solo system is perfect.
No doubt they all have issues and are dangerous... I definitely don't mean to imply that it is safe - sort of a middle ground between free soloing and climbing with a partner. I never felt terribly comfortable free soloing (duh), but due to my career choice, generally end up with a lot of partner-less week days to climb. So, I developed rope-soloing hard routes into sort of a game for myself. A much safer way to push the envelope...

Anyway, thanks for the suggestion, maybe I should do a little write-up. There are a lot of useful tid bits that I've picked up over the years that would've been very useful when I was starting out.
david doucette · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 25
nbrown wrote: I've logged a huge amount of real-world time on my soloist and am quite comfortable climbing very close to my limit (low 12's) of any style (slab to overhanging, trad to bolted).
did you ever use the silent partner? or just stick with getting really good at using the soloist. i'm definitely interested in getting either the soloist or silent partner. there seems to be more of a following for the soloist.
Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
nbrown wrote: No doubt they all have issues and are dangerous... I definitely don't mean to imply that it is safe - sort of a middle ground between free soloing and climbing with a partner. I never felt terribly comfortable free soloing (duh), but due to my career choice, generally end up with a lot of partner-less week days to climb.
Yeah, a decent write-up from someone solid with the Soloist would be helpful given the number of them in circulation and the amount they get picked up and given a whirl.

As I said in my article, not really my cup of tea given I don't like anything on my chest when I climb. I am, however, just about as comfortable roped-soloing as I am with a partner and quite often more so; but that's after a few decades and thousands of pitches. And every season when I start back up it takes me about a dozen pitches to get it all back and I have a set circuit of pitches I use to get re-acclimatized every year.

Please post up if you do write one.
Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
david doucette wrote: did you ever use the silent partner? or just stick with getting really good at using the soloist. i'm definitely interested in getting either the soloist or silent partner. there seems to be more of a following for the soloist.
I don't know, it's hard to gauge each devices 'following'. There have likely been way, way more Soloists manufactured in total, but in active use? I'm guessing Soloists and SPs probably run neck-in-neck with a lot of Soloists laying around never really seeing the light of day much.
csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330
david doucette wrote: did you ever use the silent partner? or just stick with getting really good at using the soloist. i'm definitely interested in getting either the soloist or silent partner. there seems to be more of a following for the soloist.
I don't think that I have ever met anyone who preferred the soloist to the silent partner for free climbing. That you see more of the Soloist out there might have something to do with the price compared to the Silent Partner!
Doug Wolfe · · NJ · Joined Jun 2012 · Points: 120

thanks for your input everyone

nbrown · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 7,718
csproul wrote: I don't think that I have ever met anyone who preferred the soloist to the silent partner for free climbing. That you see more of the Soloist out there might have something to do with the price compared to the Silent Partner!
I bought one of the first commercially available silent partners, I think it was late 90's. Anyway, the company (rock exotica at the time) was having issues getting mine to work properly after I returned it 2 times (both times the failures were confirmed by the company). No need to get into that as they have since corrected the issue with a different manufacturing/painting process.

I have at least 1 friend currently using the silent partner regularily and he reports no problems. He also climbs well into the 12 range with it and isn't afraid to fall. That being said, I got rid of mine and started using the soloist again. Been using it ever since.

The soloist has several advantages:

Simplicity (arguably)
Price
Ease of dogging (working routes)
Less bulky
Doesn't require biners to attach to harness

Obviously it has it's disadvantages as well.
kenr · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 16,608

nbrown wrote:
> The soloist has several advantages:
> ... Ease of dogging (working routes)

A nice feature of the Soloist that I've used is that even with full body weight hanging on the rope I can immediately switch to going downward a short ways on the rope -- just tie a backup knot below and clip into it, then lean way way back.

Like if I'm climbing on top-rope solo, and I fail on a sequence, and then I want to restart from three feet lower, rather than from the exact previous high spot where I gave up or fell off.

Also nice when cleaning the rock for a route from top to bottom (so I don't dump dirt and moss down on the holds I've already cleaned), with the rope anchored at the top. Clean a section hanging on the Soloist (with backup knot), tie a new backup and lower a few feet, clean another section - (and maybe work some of the moves if it's a tricky section, make sure I've more thoroughly cleaned the most critical holds).

Also sometimes in wierd unexpected situations, I might need to transfer body weight to something other than the self-belay in order to escape.

Is that trick also possible with the MicroCender pulley?

Ken

dancesatmoonrise · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2011 · Points: 695

nbrown, I'll add to the list of folks that would like you to write something up about your experiences with the soloist.

I'd reply to the OP, as I personally had a couple years in the late 90's where I was climbing hard on weekdays in remote places, bolting solo on the lead, but, like many others here, I don't really have any experience actually falling with the device.

I've used it some recently, again, and would like to get more comfortable with it again. So hearing your experiences with it would be most welcome.

Seems roped solo is frightening no matter what you use; unfortunately Healy is right, there's no perfect system - at least none that I've found - though I keep looking.

D.E.W., thanks for starting this thread. Nice to have the issue come up again; maybe we can all learn something from the few brave souls pushing the roped solo envelope.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Trad Climbing
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