Why Toproping?

"I agree with KN's philosophy but I think it's obvious that his actions have done his cause a disservice. Had he taken more time to educate people on that philosophy I think he may have had better luck. If some sporto were to bolt a climb I've done on gear I wouldn't be offended, I'd be flattered, and I would be sure to remind everyone who clips their way up it what a big fucking pussy they are, good-naturedly of course. So as long as they can handle that and not let their ego interfere, I say godspeed."

No, this is, actually...Red Tagger, wow...nice job man...you're a piece of work, really.

CaptainMo wrote: It's okay, we know you don't from your posts here... Maybe some underlying aspects of it... but it doesn't sound like you'd ever show up to the most popular crag in your state and apply a crowbar to holds on one of the best routes.

I agree with his philosophy but not his actions. If you can find some old Climbing mags with KN letters to the editor, he articulates some decent arguments but over time he just totally lost it and started smashing things.

zenetopia wrote:"People who clip up something that could have been done on gear are simply robbing themselves of an experience to remember and leaving in its place just another "tick" on MP." one of the most egotistically, ignorant things i've read...so absurd...

I think you need to do some dictionary reading and stop tossing out negative words you don't know the meaning of. How is my statement egotistical or ignorant?

A dictionary...yeah, i might have to purchase one...in the mean time, i will just keep reading your posts, perhaps i will learn the true meaning of the word, negative. But hey, probably not...i'm just a pussy sporto who doesn't know the true meaning of climbing...i've been doing it wrong this whole time. Thank you for your inspiration and incredible insights. Namaste.

Red Tagger wrote: I agree with his philosophy but not his actions. If you can find some old Climbing mags with KN letters to the editor, he articulates some decent arguments but over time he just totally lost it and started smashing things.

+1. The philosophy was simple - don't alter the rock to do your climb. Climb it however you want - TR, lead with bunge-ed hooks as pro, solo, Whatever. Just when you are done leave it unaltered so the next person can have the same experience.

Things went downhill with the tactics he used to back up his beliefs. History is full of similar examples - sit-ins, protests etc. History (at least our revisionist version) puts it in a better light now - but I'm sure a lot of people were pissed that they didn't get their morning caffeine in the days after the Boston Tea Party - but - taxation without representation had to go - right?

All this talk about environmental and access issues in regard to fixed gear is just PC fluff for arguments sake. The fundamental issue is that if you alter the rock you are making a decision for every climber who comes after you. Making those decisions is just as egotistical as chopping bolts.

Before you write me off as just a crazy KN supporter - realize its not true. I climbed with him BITD - even a couple of FA's. But now I am old and chicken and like my bolts. I just think that before you place them or alter the rock that it is good to realize that the issues are actually fairly complex. Over a little hole in a big rock.

Eric - I tend to agree but much of the issue I now see with the stance is that that hole can be patched with glue and you'd almost never be able to see it again... no? so wouldn't that negate the changing of the rock argument?

CaptainMo wrote:Eric - I tend to agree but much of the issue I now see with the stance is that that hole can be patched with glue and you'd almost never be able to see it again... no? so wouldn't that negate the changing of the rock argument?

Maybe that's a question of aesthetics. For sure, that's very debatable, with merits on both sides. For me, I don't like the idea that the rock has a bunch of invisible holes in it - it just doesn't sit well with me. The same way I don't want to climb a route on which I know some holds are modified.

CaptainMo wrote:Eric - I tend to agree but much of the issue I now see with the stance is that that hole can be patched with glue and you'd almost never be able to see it again... no? so wouldn't that negate the changing of the rock argument?

Sure. I think the technology and techniques are available to make bolts "disappear" (make things look more natural). But still someone has to make the proactive decision to do that and getting a consensus would be hard - after all at least 1 person thought the right thing to do was place the bolt in the first place. Simpler to have an arbitrary rule of never altering the rock in the first place.

Realize that I am partly arguing for the sake of arguing and don't fully believe this 100%. I think it's pretty silly to get riled about a hole in the rock. The rock WILL be altered as soon as it's climbed no matter how pristine you try and leave it. I believe a little more strongly in the rights of the first ascentionist as having some clout - generally against retrobolting. I think part of KN's frustration was that he wasn't able to go around and grab all the FA's in his style - some cause he wasn't good enough but a lot just because there were too many.

There are a lot more important things to spend energy on. just think if KN had worked for world peace - another Mother Teresa.

chufftard wrote: so now bolt holes are same as chipping? viva la tradiban!

Sure, you can turn this into that kind of flame war, if you like. I was referring more to the aesthetics of knowing something is unnatural. There was a really awesome article about the value of a painting when you know it's forged, made by a child, etc. Or the value of a shirt that was worn by Matt Damon, and again when you find out that Matt never wore it (or it was Matt Damon, used car salesman). I will keep wracking my brain and try to find that article for you.

for someone who cared so much about the aestic qualities of rock wonder how KN justified bashing holds with a crowbar...

Also KN pretty much turned the rock on Dol Goldur white from the amount of chalk 10,000 repeats of that route took.

Id say the amount of chalk marks on it is far more ugly than a few bolts...

specially when your whole philosophy is keeping rock in its natural condition.

chufftard wrote: so now bolt holes are same as chipping? viva la tradiban!

What part of "altering the rock" don't you understand?

superkick wrote:for someone who cared so much about the aestic qualities of rock wonder how KN justified bashing holds with a crowbar...

“Once I chop a route, it will remain chopped, no matter how many times I have to return to keep it that way. Until the bolting stops, apparently the cliffs will have to be destroyed to save them” - Ken Nichols Climbing Magazine June/July 1991

zenetopia wrote:"I agree with KN's philosophy but I think it's obvious that his actions have done his cause a disservice. Had he taken more time to educate people on that philosophy I think he may have had better luck. If some sporto were to bolt a climb I've done on gear I wouldn't be offended, I'd be flattered, and I would be sure to remind everyone who clips their way up it what a big fucking pussy they are, good-naturedly of course. So as long as they can handle that and not let their ego interfere, I say godspeed." No, this is, actually...Red Tagger, wow...nice job man...you're a piece of work, really.

I think egotistical is spot on actually; given to talking about oneself (take a look back through this thread history specifically), boastful, opinionated. It may be just who you are, but be aware that your spray does come across in such a manner – an egotist by definition. For better or worse the term is apropos. Usually your posts are written in a different style, but denigrating someone for pointing out how you’re acting in this thread only reinforces their original observations.

Tom Mulholland wrote: I will keep wracking my brain and try to find that article for you.

Okay, it wasn't an article, but it's even better. It's a TED talk (without a lot of pictures, so you can just listen to it at work too).
ted.com/talks/paul_bloom_th…

CaptainMo wrote: “Once I chop a route, it will remain chopped, no matter how many times I have to return to keep it that way. Until the bolting stops, apparently the cliffs will have to be destroyed to save them” - Ken Nichols Climbing Magazine June/July 1991

That's really messed up.

Mark Lewis wrote: I think egotistical is spot on actually; given to talking about oneself (take a look back through this thread history specifically), boastful, opinionated. It may be just who you are, but be aware that your spray does come across in such a manner – an egotist by definition. For better or worse the term is apropos. Usually your posts are written in a different style, but denigrating someone for pointing out how you’re acting in this thread only reinforces their original observations.

Sure, if you want to argue semantics, but stating an opinion isn't inherently egotistical. Perhaps the tongue in cheek comments aren't coming off as strong as I would like. I've presented my opinion along with my line of reasoning and people can take that or leave it. I know I have thoroughly enjoyed my style of climbing and I'm simply suggesting that others try it. If it's not for them that's fine.
Besides, I'm not really concerned about what someone thinks about me on the internet.

Thinking about the OP again...Austin said "why would climbers rather toprope routes (that can't go on gear and that COULD be bolted and led)" I think those climbers he's referring to simply don't see a difference between TR and leading on bolts. That would be my stance as well and I've explained why previously. Climbing is climbing and it's sad that people get so wrapped up in how they do something.

Among my circle of friends we give each other shit for everything but we don't take it too seriously and when someone calls me a pussy or whatever for not leading something or not taking the jump, etc I just smile and laugh because I don't have anything to prove. Frankly I enjoy the shit-talking it makes me think "Yea, I SHOULD sack up and do it!", it's good motivation. Free yourself from the oppression of others and you shall be rewarded.

damn, I think this thread needs some of Killis' porn

have you learned enough yet Austin?

BTW, I once brushed lichen off the rock and even cleaned the dirt and grass out of a crack so I could stick cams into it. it was (t)rad.

chufftard wrote: yep, trad fascist ninja, you don't sound egotistical or patronizing at all.

trad ninja, ahh yes. thanks chuffer, I knew I had read his writing before

chufftard wrote: yep, trad fascist ninja, you don't sound egotistical or patronizing at all.

Oh Chuffy, you turn me on when you get sarcastic. To pinch your love handles and shake it all like a bowl full of jelly would bring me great joy!

I would change my handle to "Ego Climber" but I'm not allowed a name change for another month :(

Tom Mulholland wrote: I was referring more to the aesthetics of knowing something is unnatural. .

Natural? WTF??? What is natural? Is it the Cams, the holes in the rock, your climbing shoes, or your biners that are natural? How about your car and highway? WTF is does natural mean anyway? Either it is all natural because it comes from the earth, or none of it is natural because we created it all. That is how argument works. You cannot arbitrarily denounce something as "unnatural" because of your opinion. I say this to you because I think you understand the idea of "reason". I would not bother with the ninny fascist.

Time is relative. Word.