Why Toproping?

TRmasta wrote: -I would never compare MD to CT as far as rock goes, CTs worst crags are better than MDs best(Carderrock and Great Falls). I have lived in both places. -MD has great gyms, CT has tiny OK gyms. you are right about the hard climbers mostly training in the gym instead of the rock. -cliffs like these have been bolted in Utah, mostly in the last 15 years and they are fun. as you say though mostly easy to moderate but still fun as hell. I certainly would not want to lug all my top rope gear up to these cliffs to TR them! -motivated CT climbers have gotten together and have started a movement("bowel" some might say ) so they dont have to drive to another state to climb in the style that they like. -The cliffs in CT are not at all how you describe, they may seem boring, short and chossy after TRing here once or twice(10,000 times) but in all honesty 75% of the rock is perfect for bolts and what has bolts in it now is really really good and would be anywhere, even ColoRADo or Utar. I love a good top rope sometimes but if it is all I ever did I would take up another sport/hobby like hiking or paddle board yoga.

Thanks... I was just hanging my head at where to begin responding and now I don't. For the OP - with regards to the CT bolting ethics thread it really comes down to questionable access. Most of the land that people climb on here in state is private land (very few), State, or town land. If you call the State and ask them for a list of state parks you are allowed to climb in they can't provide it. If you ask them which state parks have climbing bans they can't tell you. If you ask them about placing fixed gear, well good luck. The state park office may say yes while the HQ office in the capital Hartford will shuck some legal jargon at you. Given huge concerns about liablity it is much easier to say no then yes and ANY town or state lawyer will always say no over yes. I received permission from a Forest Warrden to place bolts in teh forest but when you ask in writing you don't get a response. Then there is the history factor... 90 years of climbing with the last two decades being overrun by a maniac. Most of the biggest and best lines in the state that would make great sport lines are in areas where climbing is prohibited but 'tolerated'. Places like Ragged Mountain have explicit no bolt or any other improvement clauses in their easement.

the only other main factor about why TR'ing is so popular is the fear thing that others have mentioned. Folks are just less adventurous back here and mostly looking for fun activities with their family and friends.

Bolting requires:
- Drill (a Bosch unless you have an ungodly amount of free time)
- Bolts and Hangers
- Permission

My guess is that the former are the main restrictions as climbers typically come from a pedigree other than Forbes or Buffett.

Thanks to all those that responsibly bolt asthetic lines for me to climb! And thanks too for my TR at Mississippi Palisades, where I probably wouldn't trust bolted lines anyway.

Aside from any stylistic questions about how valid or bold a toprope ascent is (and I do wish that our climbing culture recognized the validity of TR ascents a bit more than it does), the fact remains that most areas, sport or trad, are not that conducive to only toproping. They're either too steep, like the RRG or Maple, or too difficult to access clifftops (Smith Rock).

One thing that has not been mentioned here yet: toproping almost always will cause more environmental impact than bolting a route. The very nature of scrambling to the top of a cliff, bushwacking around looking for the top of your route, and tying off a tree is going to result in gullying, rockfall, erosion, and eventually dying trees. Heavily used toprope areas have damaged cliff tops and bases; heavily used sport areas will only have damaged cliff bases.

If you are just looking to climb a nice looking cliff in a lightly-traveled wilderness setting with the least amount of work, toproping is probably the way to go, and bolting it would just be silly or possibly illegal. But once you have a heavily used, popular crag, it is more responsible and even safer to bolt the routes and have everything approached from the ground up.

camhead wrote:One thing that has not been mentioned here yet: toproping almost always will cause more environmental impact than bolting a route. The very nature of scrambling to the top of a cliff, bushwacking around looking for the top of your route, and tying off a tree is going to result in gullying, rockfall, erosion, and eventually dying trees. Heavily used toprope areas have damaged cliff tops and bases; heavily used sport areas will only have damaged cliff bases.

This is the new reality confronting CT. Problem is that most of the cliffs also have a VERY popular trail system at the top which needs to be addressed as well.

TRmasta wrote: or place a cam/stopper

Believing that these are equivalent actions - even if you add "piton" to your list - is the fundamental issue. Some believe that these are equivalent actions. Some don't.

I think if you actually went to Devil's Lake and spent a few days climbing there you would "see" the answer to your question, and accept the fact that top roping is a perfectly valid form of climbing.

TRmasta wrote: -I would never compare MD to CT as far as rock goes, CTs worst crags are better than MDs best(Carderrock and Great Falls). I have lived in both places.

I take it you've never been to Harper's Ferry, Maryland Heights, The Narrows, etc. There's a whole lot more to MD than what sits within 20 minutes of DC.

Jon H wrote: I take it you've never been to Harper's Ferry, Maryland Heights, The Narrows, etc. There's a whole lot more to MD than what sits within 20 minutes of DC.

I'm sure there is but it likely doesn't hold a candle to the central CT climbing just as central CT climbing can't hold a candle to the Daks or the Whites...

Someone mentioned the environmental impact of the sport. Well done, we need to take better ownership of not only the crag, but the far off lands where the resources to make our gear comes from:

Stick clip the first bolt, climb to the second, and clip the anchors. What was the point of all that?

I prefer to lead but when I see a fully bolted sport route that is 25' high, I just can't care.

A good painters pole or golf ball retriever is 16'-18' long. A typical climber's reach is 7-8' tall (distance your hands are above your head when standing on your toes and stretching up)

I say if a typical stick clip can clip the anchor, just put an anchor that is easier to snag with the stick and tr it. No leads shorter than 22'. Everything else in this thread is just people comparing different situations and thinking they are the same.

CaptainMo wrote: the only other main factor about why TR'ing is so popular is the fear thing that others have mentioned. Folks are just less adventurous back here and mostly looking for fun activities with their family and friends.

With regards to this "fear thing", we've seen plenty of responses suggesting that people need to just sack up and lead these routes on gear. But do these routes (on CT Traprock, to be specific) generally have crack systems that take gear; is leading on gear a viable option? If these are unprotectable or barely-protected faces, the "man up and lead it" response is absurd; most sane people don't want to stick thier neck out that far in thier everyday climbing, and for good reason.

I love it how it's always the trad climbers that are so "holier than thou". Would rather plug a piece on 10a and feel badass than whip on a 12 and actually push their physical limits..... don't see many boulderers or sport climbers talkin themselves up do you?

Jon Moen wrote: With regards to this "fear thing", we've seen plenty of responses suggesting that people need to just sack up and lead these routes on gear. But do these routes (on CT Traprock, to be specific) generally have crack systems that take gear; is leading on gear a viable option? If these are unprotectable or barely-protected faces, the "man up and lead it" response is absurd; most sane people don't want to stick thier neck out that far in thier everyday climbing, and for good reason.

Exactly, if they don't want to stick their neck out they should just TR it.

Next question: Why do people climb, using a rope?

Next question: Why do people complain and argue about everything?

Haywood Jeublowme wrote:I love it how it's always the trad climbers that are so "holier than thou". Would rather plug a piece on 10a and feel badass than whip on a 12 and actually push their physical limits..... don't see many boulderers or sport climbers talkin themselves up do you?

seems like someone is talking themselves up and making judgements

again access issues aside it all comes down to fear ...

one interesting thing is that even some good UK climbers such as hazel findley (in the odessey) admit that the lack of bolts is one thing that is stopping her from pushing herself sometimes ... and james pearson admitted that when he went to the continent to sport climb he got his ass kicked, he found out he was basically a one dimensional weak climber by climbing grit all the time ....and that Caroline Ciavaldini more or less just started trad but as a sport weenie was able to onsight e5/e6/e7s ...

if the climb can be done "safely" on lead just lead it ... for those that say that leading on bolts is the same as TRing, then congratulations youre one of that small subset of the population that has no fear of falling ... even the best climbers have that natural fear and need to overcome it on lead ...

as to those who say they get more climbing in ... well thats yr choice but if its easy enough to do laps, its easy enough to lead quickly ... if i want laps ill lead it up the first time to set up the rope, and then possibly to one or two TR laps ...

climbing IMO is all about overcoming your irrational fear (rational fear is a different story) ... and you only do that by leading over and over again ... every "safe" climb that you can

Eric Engberg wrote: seems like someone is talking themselves up and making judgements

I love ALL types of climbing. Clipping bolts, clipping gear, swinging axes, kicking steps in the snow. Not talking myself up at all. I like cruising AND pushing myself. And yes, if you ask me, it ALWAYS seems to be the trad climbers that imply that their style is the best. It is simply one way to get to the top. Quit bitchin about style and go climb sumthin.

Red Tagger wrote: Exactly, if they don't want to stick their neck out they should just TR it.

The absurd aspect of this sort of response is that one side is asking specific, pragmatic questions, and the other is responding with a stubborn generalized rhetoric.

Here is the basic flow:

- Someone notes that TRing is the norm at a certain crag, and that TRing is causing certain impact problems.

-The obvious solution to TR impacts is that people instead lead climbs.

-Good, this makes sense. Now the obvious question is whether these routes can be led as-is, on gear, or if addition of bolts would be neccesary to make this a pragmatic solution.

-The tradiban then responds that you should never add bolts, since if you can't lead on gear, then you can just TR. This takes us nowhere, or, more accurately, it takes us full circle, right back to where we started.

The majority of the responses to this thread have had nothing to do with the specifics of the OPs question, and have instead just been bullishly stubborn statements of an outdated, generalized dogma.

Jon Moen wrote: The absurd aspect of this sort of response is that one side is asking specific, pragmatic questions, and the other is responding with a stubborn generalized rhetoric. Here is the basic flow: - Someone notes that TRing is the norm at a certain crag, and that TRing is causing certain impact problems. -The obvious solution to TR impacts is that people instead lead climbs. -Good, this makes sense. Now the obvious question is whether these routes can be led as-is, on gear, or if addition of bolts would be neccesary to make this a pragmatic solution. -The tradiban then responds that you should never add bolts, since if you can't lead on gear, then you can just TR. This takes us nowhere, or, more accurately, it takes us full circle, right back to where we started. The majority of the responses to this thread have had nothing to do with the specifics of the OPs question, and have instead just been bullishly stubborn statements of an outdated, generalized dogma.

BAM! Well done... The pragmatic solution that seems obvious to most of us newer climbers are mixed lines with accessible TR anchors. By new I mean the last two decades. Unfort drilling a hole which can be patched is way worse in tradies minds then killing or harming living things (baffling honestly).