Figure 8 vs Double Bowline

For the ultimate in climbing convenience (because cmon, safety is the number 2 worry in climbing), there is an ipad app that ties the rope for you!

But really, if tying and untying a fig 8 is too much work for someone to do, then maybe climbing isn't the right sport. Doing things the right way isn't always quick, but accidents start where laziness creeps in. Being lazy on your tax forms is one thing, but when it comes to safety and preservation of your own life, why not try to make climbing as safe as possible with such a little thing? Now i'm not trying to start a discussion on soloing and its inherent risks, but when tying in to a rope, why not be as safe as you can? What's next, is it gonna be too much of a pain in the ass to double back the harness?

just a comment relevant to this; my foreman just last week told me "its a bowline" in response to my query what type of knot is that? We were setting up rigging for structural ironworking.

"Im left handed so it's backwards" he said. My boss has had a 20 year hiatus from his caving and climbing days, during which he was fully competent.

What he had tied was not, in fact a bowline. Identified from a quick visual inspection. Bowline is easier to mess up than the 8 IMO, but if you are actually good at your knots, you can spot it a mile away.

Ben Brotelho wrote:For the ultimate in climbing convenience (because cmon, safety is the number 2 worry in climbing), there is an ipad app that ties the rope for you! But really, if tying and untying a fig 8 is too much work for someone to do, then maybe climbing isn't the right sport. Doing things the right way isn't always quick, but accidents start where laziness creeps in. Being lazy on your tax forms is one thing, but when it comes to safety and preservation of your own life, why not try to make climbing as safe as possible with such a little thing? Now i'm not trying to start a discussion on soloing and its inherent risks, but when tying in to a rope, why not be as safe as you can? What's next, is it gonna be too much of a pain in the ass to double back the harness?

There is nothing unsafe about a bowline. Over 75% of my partners use a bowline and are whipping on it all day long. You can fuck up any knot if you're retarded.

And actually, it IS too much of a pain in the ass to double back a harness. That's why I and most non-gumbies bought one where you don't need to.

If you can be lazy and safe why not? Just because something is a PITA doesn't make it inherently better.

Ben Brotelho wrote:For the ultimate in climbing convenience (because cmon, safety is the number 2 worry in climbing), there is an ipad app that ties the rope for you! But really, if tying and untying a fig 8 is too much work for someone to do, then maybe climbing isn't the right sport. Doing things the right way isn't always quick, but accidents start where laziness creeps in. Being lazy on your tax forms is one thing, but when it comes to safety and preservation of your own life, why not try to make climbing as safe as possible with such a little thing? Now i'm not trying to start a discussion on soloing and its inherent risks, but when tying in to a rope, why not be as safe as you can? What's next, is it gonna be too much of a pain in the ass to double back the harness?

No one is making the argument that being able to easily untie a knot is more important than safety. But I know plenty of people (I am one of them) who would argue that climbing on any form of a bowline can be just as safe as climbing on a fig 8. So if it is possible to have both safety and convenience, then why not have both?

It is a fact that people have died while climbing with a bowline knot, but it is also a fact that people have died from their rope being cut. But we don't see everyone running out and buying double ropes now do we?

You said "if trying to untie a fig 8 is too much work... maybe climbing isn't the right sport."

I don't disagree with that statement at all. I'd also add this:

If making sure that your own knot is tied correctly is too difficult, then maybe climbing is not the right sport for you.

Now, to be clear, I nearly always tie a figure 8. I guided and taught climbing for a long time, and I always thought it was dumb to teach people the fig 8 and then go and tie in w/ a bowline. And yes, for the average climber, spotting an incorrectly tied 8 is easier than spotting an incorrectly tied bowline. There are a lot of ways to tie a bowline but there is only one Figure 8 Follow Through. It is a standard.

For these reasons I used the fig 8 and asked even my experienced clients to use a fig 8. It became so normal for me to tie in with this knot that I just never thought about changing.

But now that I don't work in the guiding industry anymore, I will tie in w/ a retraced bowline if I know I'm about to whip on my skinny rope a bunch of times. It's now normal practice for me to use different knots and I don' have to think about which one I will use.

In any case I absolutely ALWAYS double and triple check my own knot. If my partner wants to check it that's fine, but I never ask or expect them to do so. Staying safe is MY responsibility.

Eh. To me any knot that relies on a backup to be safe is NOT as safe as a knot that works on its own.

Think of the safety as a political knot. It's made for those that need to hold themselves as important to others without actually accomplishing anything.

camhead wrote: So THAT'S why we never hear about you sending anything!

Yea, well someone has to test the ropes for safety, those UIAA guys dont actually climb. I sent an A3 on El Cap this season. If you send me a flag with your face on it I will drag it up the big stone next season and hang it atop the Nose. That way when all the nooby Euros top out they can look at your unworked face and ponder how you were able to get up there so effortlessly. The Koreans will instantly worship you as the El Cap god and supreme ruler of the multi-day climbing universe. You might be able to pull a sponsorship gig out of it.

an added advantage to the bowline is that you will never forget to untie your figure 8 before you pull the rope for the next climber. i've seen too many people leave their 8 still tied to the end after they finish climbing. bad habit that i've had to break from some of my partners. for various reasons i tie a double bowline. i learned the knot when i was 10 and have tied it more than anything, so knowing how to check it is no problem for me. and apparently i don't know how to dress a figure 8 if i have ever had trouble untying it?? i just thought thats the way it was!!

if you dont fall on a climb where the gear is good and backuped, and the fall is clean ... you arent climbing hard enough

its that simple ;)

and no one i know leaves a fig 8 on the rope once they get out of the toppu roperu tofu guy stage in the gym =P

Mark you're spot on as usual
Aloha, Olaf

What a cool knot! I just practiced it, and while I'll take your word that it is very easy to undo, one thing that I noticed was that it took quite a long time to take off. If you are doing a long multipitch route where you won't be removing yourself from the rope for long periods of time, this would seem to be a very good choice. But for single pitch climbs where you may be trading the rope with your friends, I think sticking with the easy to remove figure 8 follow-through is the way to go.

Edward Pyune wrote: If you are doing a long multipitch route where you won't be removing yourself from the rope for long periods of time, this would seem to be a very good choice. But for single pitch climbs where you may be trading the rope with your friends, I think sticking with the easy to remove figure 8 follow-through is the way to go.

Actually you have it completely backwards. The bowline should not be used on multipitch, and especially not long multipitch routes because the knot can in some cases loosen up and possibly come untied. The version I use is very unlikely to come untied, but some versions can. This knot is best used on single pitch climbs where the leader falls often. The only reason why the knot took longer for you to untie was because you did not take a whipper on it. The entire function of this knot is to make it faster and easier to untie after a lead fall. But it is only functional if you fall. If you dont take whippers often, dont use the bowline, there is no point.

^^^^+1

20 kN wrote: The entire function of this knot is to make it faster and easier to untie after a lead fall. But it is only functional if you fall. If you dont take whippers often, dont use the bowline, there is no point.

I like the bowline, but use an '8':

rockandice.com/articles/how…

Don't really need to read the link, it pleads that we use the eight. Anyone climbing today?

Steve

My friend had his double bowline untie and slide through the all the quickdraws before landing back at my feet. After a few solo moves and an awkward game of catch, my partner got the rope back, tied in and continued on the route, but is now a self proclaimed "figure 8 man"

This is yet another matter of personal preference gone dogma. It is as ridiculously inconsequential as debating the merits of an innie versus an outtie. Then again, this is the internet.... Carry on ;).

everyone knows outties are disgusting!

I use a cable laid rope, take along a marlin spike and instead of tying in I splice the rope around my harness.

In reality though, I have pulled my car out of the snow/ditch with a fig 8 and untied it. The rope was a 8.6 and required smashing with a hammer to soften the knot.

I'm curious about which variant(s) of the bowline were tied in the infamous cases of failure or near-miss. It's hard to compare apples to apples when there are so many different ways to complete the knot.