Figure 8 vs Double Bowline

skeeter wrote: Hey Allen (or anyone else that knows), I've been curious about the double bowline and the lockoff. Does it need to be fed back through the loop then locked off or can it be locked off in the same fashion shown on the bowline diagram in your post?

I don't know for sure, but I would assume it's just to keep the tail/stopper knot out of the main loop.

Extra info: I tie in with the BOAB (retrace, of course) and instead of tying an extra stopper knot as shown in the picture, I tuck the tail back down, in this case the loops on the lower-left of the knot.

Climbers using the Yosemite finish on a figure-8

should be aware of a dangerous tendency to capsize under relatively moderate loads (eg twice body weight) if the loop is cross-loaded. What you don't ever want to do is something like this:



A bowline that hasn't been properly backed up (for me, Yosemite finish plus barrel knot) is even worse if cross-loaded in this way.

The bowline on a bight, or in the context of tying in, the rethreaded bowline, is the best combination of security and untie-ability.

rgold wrote:Climbers using the Yosemite finish on a figure-8 should be aware of a dangerous tendency to capsize under relatively moderate loads (eg twice body weight) if the loop is cross-loaded. What you don't ever want to do is something like this: A bowline that hasn't been properly backed up (for me, Yosemite finish plus barrel knot) is even worse if cross-loaded in this way. The bowline on a bight, or in the context of tying in, the rethreaded bowline, is the best combination of security and untie-ability.

I thought this was a "myth."

I mean I know that a fig 8 can roll and capsize, which is why we don't use it to join two ropes together for a rappel. But I was under the impression that the Yose finish didn't neccessarily increase the chances of it happening. Couldn't you capsize a regular fig eight pretty easily if cross loaded the wrong way?

And since we do agree that a fig 8 can collapse, what do you think about belaying off the rope loop? I know if you are attached to the anchor with the rope then this kind of cross loading is not likely, but in all the literature I've seen about belaying off your rope loop, no one ever mentions that the fig 8 knot will roll if the loop is loaded incorrectly.

Alan Corneau,
As long as we're geeking out on knot nomenclature I'm going to split a very fine hair. The knot you call a bowline on a bight is what I call a retraced bowline. Why? Because you can't tie a bowline on a bight through a closed loop like a harness tie-in. To tie that knot you have to first tie a single bowline through your tie-in points then re-trace it.

To tie a bowline on a bight, you don't need an end; you tie it in a bight of rope.

It's analogous to a re-traced figure-8 tie-in vs a figure-8 on a bight. The knots you end up with are identical but how you got there determines the name.

BTW, I've been climbing since 1968 using a double bowline and it has never even started to come lose, never mind untying itself. I think it's a very safe knot but I don't tie in with it at most climbing gyms. It makes the staff nervous because they're not trained to recognize anything except a fig-8.

I now tie in with a re-traced bowline because it's more complicated to tie and the process of tying it forces me to pay more attention to the process.

Anything that forces me to pay more attention to what I'm doing--especially in a crowded gym or crag--is a good thing. That why I like my weird belay glasses--they force me to keep my eye on the climber rather than the girl in the hot pants next to me.

climb safe,
Mal

Mal -
It actually is possible....but not convenient :0)

youtube.com/watch?v=PzIP4IU…

Ryan, I don't think the result is a myth. The report and the diagram I posted can be found at bergundsteigen.at/file.php/…, which states, if I understand the German, that, according to tests by Mammut, the figure 8 with Yosemite finish can roll at 160 kg when ring-loaded.

The same article says that this knot is not even close to secure enough for clipping a belay device into directly. An ordinary figure-eight may have similar issues, although the Brits use this clip-in method with some regularity and I don't think there has ever been an incident in which a fall arrest caused the knot to roll. But this is at least partially due to the fact that the belayer's tie-in, if tensioned, causes the knot to reorient and not be ring-loaded.

Here again, the safest knot is probably the rethreaded bowline, celebrated for its relative complexity just above by Malcom.

Thanks for the link. I'll have to check that out when I have some time.

I've always sort of wondered how likely it is to crossload the tie in loop if you are belaying a leader. When belaying a follower it isn't much of a concern as long as you have everything set up right. But you're right, everyone does it here and apparently without incident.

Love the retraced bowline for sport climbing, but the fact that it makes it safer to use the rope loop as a belay doesnt really help me. I'd only do that when trad climbing and when I trad climb I use doubles. Retraced bowline doesn't work well with two ropes.

I always tie in with a bowline.......

Have for 17 years........

Is there any others reason to climb at the gym than the hotties.....

i generally whip several times a session, frequently more, when climbing at my limit on trad or sport ... never had an issue untying a fig 8 ... as long as you tie it nicely and know how to take it apart ... it takes no more than a min or two even after the worse whips IME

now i can see it being a bit more troublesome to untie on old stiff fuzzy ropes ... but then you dont want to go whipping on those ropes over and over again do ya now ;)

tie in with whatever you like ... just make sure it wont come undone and you tie it properly ... and if you do a bowline, dont expect yr partner to be able to check every one of those variations that people are confused about here ...

Greg,, Thanks for that! I should have been able to figure it out and, you'r right. It looks like a PITA.
Mal

Allen Corneau wrote: This is a bowline on a bight...

Except that when the knot is retraced through your harness, it's no longer a bowline on a bight. Most knots on a bight cannot be tied through the harness because the term bight references knots tied mid rope (even if close to the end) with two stands of rope as opposed to one. That is the problem with the knot I use, it does not really have a name. I call it the retraced bowline on a bight to make it easier to understand what knot I am talking about, but technically it is not a bowline on a bight because it has been retraced and it has been tied with a single strand of rope. It just creates the effective equivalent of a bowline on a bight. It is like the difference between the retraced figure eight and the figure eight on a bight. They are the exact same knot, but the way in which you tie them determines if they are on bight or not.

As far as single vs double bowline goes. The version I use is technically a single blowline because only one strand of rope pinches the rope leaving the turn. There are two strands of rope making the turn because the bowline on a bight is two bowlines tied in series. If I wanted to convert that knot to a double bowline, there would need to be four turns pinching the strands leaving the bend. But that would be pointless as the knot is already sufficiently secure in its original form.

Ryan Williams wrote: I thought this was a "myth." I mean I know that a fig 8 can roll and capsize, which is why we don't use it to join two ropes together for a rappel.

Ryan: to clarify what you've said:

A flat figure-8 isn't used to join two ropes because of it's potential to capsize, but a figure-8 bend (a.k.a. Flemish Bend) is viable and commonly used by some people.

Mal: Very true (and I do like geeking out about knots on occasion). Gregger Man posted what I was immediately thinking about not being able to "tie in" mid-rope. Thanks Gregger.

Ok, just had a thought...

If we call a "figure-8 on a bight" being tied on the harness a "figure-8 follow-through" we should follow the convention and call the "bowline on a bight" tied on the harness a "bowline follow-through".

Hmm?!?

For added confusion I thought I would include the knot that I have been using regularly for years. If I remember correctly this knot was featured as a "tech tip" in climbing magazine perhaps a decade ago. I'm not sure I have any real justification for using this knot over any others except that I like it.

Now for your pleasure the Double Bowline with a Bowline Backup (DBBB).

DBBB top view

DBBB side view

Clearly, when using this knot, most people are going to have no clue what you are doing...so take the time to practice it (alot) before embarrassing yourself at the crag. Also, know that if you don't tighten this knot (or any other bowline for that matter) YER GONNA DIE!!!!

P.S. for those of you who claim to use the fig-8 because double-checking knot is too much work...in my experience the more common error is not tying the rope incorrectly at all, but in fact it is accidentally tieing into the wrong point on the harness i.e. dopes who tie their fig-8 into a leg loop.

This is an interesting discussion.

I would be curious to see a photo of the retraced bowline tied into a harness. How to tie the fisherman's backup to be threaded back down through the knot? -As John Wilder mentioned. I would like to learn this knot.

I like to tie a double bowline for gym climbing and sport climbing. I can usually untie faster than folks I climb with using a figure eight that's been loaded, the advantage being not having to fight with the knot every 2 minutes. However, I always use a figure eight with a yosemite finish for multi-pitch trad climbing, which feels more secure when tied in for a longer time.

I didn't read the whole thread, but just in case nobody else mentioned it... you sir are gonna die. Carry on.

For those interested, this topic has been covered heavily on rc.com:

rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/fo…;post=2578205;page=4;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

Gregger Man, I think it's time to post the Soooooper 8 again.

Shhhh!

The Sooooper Eight is triple-top secret (for secrecy redundancy, of course. )

20 kN wrote: I have taken over 1,000 lead falls ...

So THAT'S why we never hear about you sending anything!

On to the more important topic: I like the Figure 8, because it instills a very dark, self-loathing form of Puritanical guilt into my climbing. When I take a big fall, lower down, and am pumped out of my goard, the welded figure 8 reminds me that I should not have fallen, and that I climbed terribly. As I struggle to undo it, millimeter by millimeter, I chant the dark sermon, "You are a BAD climber. A BAD climber."

But then again, I have not taken 1,000 lead falls, so I may not know what I am talking about :)