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Figure 8 vs Double Bowline

Original Post
Jeffrey Watts · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 0

I'm a bigger guy 190-200lb and undoing a loaded figure8 can really suck sometimes so lately I've been tying the double bowline. Some people swear by this knot others wont even belay a person that ties it. From what I've read the figure8 is stronger but since the rope is so wicked strong that it really doesn't matter, and since the bowline is much easier to undue why not use it? Thoughts and opinions...

A Smith · · Bozeman, MT · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 95

Here we go...

JesseT · · Portland, OR · Joined May 2011 · Points: 100

The main benefit of the figure 8 is that it is incredibly easy to spot one that's tied correctly. This is part of what makes it such a safe knot. You're right that a bowline is plenty strong with modern ropes, but it's not as easy to see mistakes in it.

There are a bunch of threads on this. The general consensus is don't get fancy, fig 8's work and work well. Technically a figure 9 is an even better knot, but the difficulty in inspecting it makes it less preferable than the 8. If you're having trouble untying it, try a Yosemite finish (or stop falling, nyuk nyuk).



I find the Yosemite finish makes the knot a lot easier to untie when loaded (so does making sure the knot is dressed properly). If that doesn't work for you, well, it's your skin and you can go for the bowline if you really want to (as long as you have a consenting belayer, nobody wants to be a witness).

Cue the rabidly pro-bowline crowd:

(edit: looks like I got beat to the punch)
Bill C. · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 110

If its tied right it will be just fine. If its not tied right it will not work.

It should also be noted that a bowline is not finished unless it has a fisherman backup. That step is not optional with this particular knot.

Some people will tell you that it is unsafe, which isnt necessarily true. Realistically, any knot that is tied incorrectly can fail, it's your responsibility to make sure that you are tying it correctly (and ideally have a belayer who can verify this every time).

Have fun, double check, and if you are comfortable and confident with it dont listen to the haters.

Jeffrey Watts · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 0

John thanks for the reply. Forgive my ignorance I'm pretty new to this sport. When you say "back it up" you mean tying a fisherman knot in addition to the bowline? And yes I have noticed, when tying the Yosemite finish it is a bit easier to untie.

Gregger Man · · Broomfield, CO · Joined Aug 2004 · Points: 1,759

Some method of backup is required.
This is what I do:
youtube.com/watch?v=PkKkJAx…

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

i actually find the yos finish on the fig 8 much harder to untie

tie the fig 8 properly and neatly ...

after a whipper PUSH and twist the knot to loosen it ...

sevrdhed · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2006 · Points: 155

Yer gonna diiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
John Wilder wrote:Yosemite finish on your fig-8 will make your knot very easy to untie.


If by Yosemite finish you are referring to the variation above, then I disagree with your statement. I have taken over 1,000 lead falls on a figure eight with a Yosemite tieoff and the knot is not any easier to untie with the Yosemite finish. I tie it just like shown in the picture above which was taken off the AAI's website as a guide on how to tie the figure eight. The only reason why I used the Yosemite finish was to remove the tail so the rope is easier to clip. The figure eight is a secure knot that will seize up under high loading, that is just how it goes, there is no way around it. I have actually had to cut the rope after taking multiple leashed highline falls. My friends and I tried all day to untie it and we couldent get it. That is why I switched to the double bowline on a bight. I have been using that for a year now and taken a few hundred lead falls on it, including one 50 footer, and it works great. I will never switch back. If you use the version I use, the Bowline is secure and will hold in any rope. Below is the version I use, except I feed the tail back through the knot so it stays out of the way. It is arguably the most secure version of the bowline:

Go Back to Super Topo · · Lex · Joined Dec 2010 · Points: 285

a true yosemite finish actually weakens the overall strength of the knot overall due to many reasons (not that the knot is every gonna be what breaks in almost all circumstances) but something to keep in mind.

Ben Brotelho · · Albany, NY · Joined May 2011 · Points: 520

" Yer gonna

diiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!"

Yep. Gonna die!

Maybe just stop falling if a figure eight is too hard to untie after climbing. Or just do a knot similar to one used to tie shoes...just make sure to double knot it!!!

I like to use velcro to attach me to the rope personally...quick, easy, painless

Mark E Dixon · · Possunt, nec posse videntur · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 974

I like the "brotherhood knot" which is kind of like a reverse rethreaded overhand knot. But I think I'll start calling it the "alpine granny knot."

Rob WardenSpaceLizard · · las Vegans, the cosmic void · Joined Dec 2011 · Points: 130

try the dyslexic bowline...its pimpin...

Mike Ecker · · phoenix · Joined Jan 2008 · Points: 25

I agree with john wilder all the way. Yosemite finish, as long as you don't pull the finish taught will untie easily. Plus why tie a knot that you will need to check every pitch or have to back up!

Cale Hoopes · · Sammamish, WA · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 10

Wow... 1,000 falls.

I agree with the one person who found the yosemite finish on the double figure 8 to be a little harder to loosen.

However, I also think that you should just go with that and work the knot free after loading. Life goes on.

I don't think the bowline is that good of an idea just because it's so easy to tie it wrong and it's hard to inspect.

Typical answer, yeah, I know. But why take an extra risk?

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
Cale Hoopes wrote:Wow... 1,000 falls.
What can I say, falling is fun. I will gladly take a whipper for the camera to to startle the non-climbing locals in the area. Plus, I like climbing at and sometimes above my limit which means falls are inevitable. You are correct that the bowline is harder to inspect, but once you get it down, it's not hard. The downside to the bowline is that your partner cannot inspect unless s/he knows how to tie it which is part of the reason why it is normally not allowed in the gym. Also, unlike the figure eight, you should pretension the bowline, especially if you use the double bowline as opposed to the retraced bowline on a bight.

Honestly, the bowline on a bight with my special finishing "bowline Yosmeite finish" variation is the only version I would use. I have used the standard double bowline in the past, but that version is much less secure and can loosen up. At that point you are relying solely on your backup fisherman's to stop the knot from coming untied. I have seen people tie it with no backup! That is a death sentence IMO. Anyway, my version is so much secure because it is two knots tied in series. Basically you tie a single bowline, then retrace the rope back through your harness, tie another single bowline, then tie a finshing knot. It's pretty secure.
Allen Corneau · · Houston, TX · Joined May 2008 · Points: 80

You guys are driving me nuts.

This is a bowline...



This is a double bowline...



This is a bowline on a bight...



Using the proper term will help to further the conversation instead of causing confusion.
skeeter · · Lakewood CA · Joined Aug 2012 · Points: 10
Allen Corneau wrote:You guys are driving me nuts. This is a bowline... This is a double bowline... This is a bowline on a bight... Using the proper term will help to further the conversation instead of causing confusion.
Hey Allen (or anyone else that knows), I've been curious about the double bowline and the lockoff. Does it need to be fed back through the loop then locked off or can it be locked off in the same fashion shown on the bowline diagram in your post?
Jonathan S · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2010 · Points: 2,113
Allen Corneau wrote:You guys are driving me nuts. This is a bowline... This is a double bowline... This is a bowline on a bight... Using the proper term will help to further the conversation instead of causing confusion.
I'm totally with you. It drives me crazy too. Proper terms, knowing your knots, and rigging, is essential. Put some time into it.

Do you sail?
Allen Corneau · · Houston, TX · Joined May 2008 · Points: 80
steitz wrote: Do you sail?
Nope, just a climber living in the flatlands of the Gulf Coast.
Guy Kenny Jr · · Boulder, CO · Joined Nov 2008 · Points: 10

Double Bowline with a back up since 1989. Never come undone, I'm not changing.

Prod.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

General Climbing
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