Gunks MUA camping ticket - help?

Kevin Heckeler wrote: Some want to dismiss a climber's importance to the economic fabric of the area, and I would suggest we don't place enough importance on it.

The Preserve may not be perfect, but they have preserved land, ecosystems and the cliffs, and allow climbing at a reasonable fee. I hope that you have spent much more effort trying to get the PIPC to allow climbing on it's cliffs. Have you written as many letters to them, to your governor, senator and representative as you have postings here complaining about the Preserve rates? Have you made these points where it might help?

GMBurns wrote:How do you go from "climbers not being important" to "no climbing allowed?" What about "climbing not being important" to "climbing not being important but we'll permit it anyway?" ... Maybe you aren't an idiot in real life, but you play a good one on the internet.

Sorry I lost you. Maybe this whole reading and analysis thing aint your cup o tea... ;-)

[eye for eye, aye?]

lucander wrote:Leave that guy Kevin alone, he's trying to help OP Emmett resolve his illegal camping ticket.

I think he'll think twice about coming back to the Gunks. :-D

Kidding aside, I've receive a few private messages indicating the couple voices in this thread engaging the MP clan are spot with their impressions. There's been a lot of good pro/con points made, and the bickering overshadows it.

Latro wrote: The Preserve may not be perfect, but they have preserved land, ecosystems and the cliffs, and allow climbing at a reasonable fee. I hope that you have spent much more effort trying to get the PIPC to allow climbing on it's cliffs. Have you written as many letters to them, to your governor, senator and representative as you have postings here complaining about the Preserve rates? Have you made these points where it might help?

Why am I responsible to champion a cause? I'm having a discussion on an internet forum. It doesn't make me obligated to do anything more/less regarding the things being discussed here. It also doesn't change the validity of the objections. I don't like taxes, but I don't not pay them and I don't spend my free time protesting at the congressional steps. It doesn't make the issues with taxes any less relevant because I'M not spending free time pursuing resolution of them. Shoot the messenger some more why don't you. If we can't openly and honestly be allowed to discuss topics without requiring an arbitrary level of invovlement then we're all very much screwed as a culture. Who would 'approve' my involvement in this discussion? What license or course would I need to take in order to be certified as "Gunks Opinion Ready"?

GMBurns wrote:While there is some concern about liability, it's only because insurance is needed. Properly planned volunteer work is very easy to manage and it is a very important part of non-profit land organizations. The only person person worrying about liability and public relations disasters with regards to volunteerism is the insurance salesman. Shit, even the lawyers don't worry about it beyond the simple measures of their jobs.

I'M worried about it, which is why I don't do much volunteer work as a whole. My job requires I be there Monday AM, just can't chance doing something stupid to my back. I mentioned this because so little is made of the risks inherent in doing menial grunt work. It's worth mentioning, people DO get hurt doing trail work. Shit, I've been injured more doing occassional stuff around the house than in all of my years of outdoors activites combined. I think when it's something mundane we let our guard down and injuries happen. My back injury was picking up something improperly in the living room.

For whatever reason my point has been glazed over regarding the preserve spending a lot in resources to get my money and not my volunteer hours, which says a lot about THEIR priorities. Guess we're all guilty of picking and choosing items from prior posts that are convenient or snippets out of context.

Where does one find out about volunteer opportunities with the preserve? Has anyone received anything in the mail re: volunteering?

So if we don't shop at Mud and Slush, we're not locals, and if we're not locals then we shouldn't have any input?

Quit whining, pay the fee, climb, enjoy, repeat.

Kevin Heckeler wrote:Has anyone received anything in the mail re: volunteering?

I found the following on their website, although I'm hard pressed to find anything I've received from them in the mail (several donation forms though)...

[just in case anyone else was interested or curious]

mohonkpreserve.org/opportun…

If I had to guess, they assume anyone interested would call and ask, or visit the website. Might not be a bad approach... the issue with this thinking (inconsistency) is that if they feel personal pleas for cash via snail mail generate a better return than emails or banners on their webpage, wouldn't the same be true for volunteering needs? Just seems to reinforce the notion that they're focused and "needier" in the cash department. Or maybe they have enough volunteers.

Kevin Heckeler wrote: Just seems to reinforce the notion that they're focused and "needier" in the cash department. Or maybe they have enough volunteers.

Or maybe it's just that you can't buy tracts of adjoining land with volunteers.

Gunkiemike wrote: Or maybe it's just that you can't buy tracts of adjoining land with volunteers.

Is that really their goal? That's an expensive business model, they're not the State. That actually concerns me more than being greedy. They're intentionally increasing their overhead while crying poor all the time. It's like someone running up the credit cards while complaining they can't afford the minimum payment. At least that's the kind of angle they take in their pledge drives, and my perception.

The reality of the downstate economy is probably going to change with the number of people affected by Sandy. MP might want to tighten their belts a bit in the coming year.

YES!(about land tracts)
Mission

The mission of the Mohonk Preserve is to protect the Shawangunk Mountains by inspiring people to care for, enjoy, and explore the natural world.

(Yes, I can already see the "it doesn't say anything about purchasing lands" in that sentence). You can learn more about their mission as well as Fundraising AND Financial practices on their website here: mohonkpreserve.org/mission-…

They EVEN provide a contact you can send inquiries to.....WOW! No more making assumptions based on misinformation and preconceived notions, what a concept!

As for volunteerism - There is a certain type, if you will, who is apt to volunteer. Those types know that all they need do is ask and the way will be shown. Ask ANY trailhead assistant, ranger, person at the Visitor Center about volunteering and not a one of them is going to say "gee...I dunno!" Heck - there are people from Kentucky who show up twice a year to volunteer. Wonder how the hell they found out about it all the way down there!

As for trailwork dangers - YES, it can be dangerous work! You can be hurt or even killed doing trailwork as the crew I am on does. Trail crew members are expected to know their limits and capabilities, use common sense, and be careful. We even take care to know who is climbing above our working sections, especially after having a huge cascade of trees and rock trundled on us a few years ago by a noobie being traversed by a supposedly competent leader.

We don't need, nor do we want, people who can't do hard labor. They're not of use in the projects we take on. There are plenty of other volunteer opportunities available on the preserve. They even have a Director of Volunteers! That person can help you choose activities which are just your cup of tea. From leading hikes and outings, providing talks, taking photos, gardening around the visitor center, maintaining a section of hiking trail(not trail-building, but snipping overgrown brush, reporting downed trees and such), directing parking at events...I am sure there are plenty other opportunities available.

Oy fucking veh...

Happiegrrrl wrote:They EVEN provide a contact you can send inquiries to.....WOW! No more making assumptions based on misinformation and preconceived notions, what a concept!

You assume a couple things here - that it would disprove the point you think it would about their priorities, and that everyone would see the preserve's mission/goals as good priorities to have (or as good justification for fee increases). That's been your assumption all along in this thread - that those who don't agree with you are misinformed and need to see things as you do. It seems the issue has less to do with the quality or lack of information as it does how one interprets that information. There's more than one side to every story.

Very interesting docs...

mohonkpreserve.org/sites/de…

mohonkpreserve.org/sites/de…

Stich wrote:I got two speeding tickets in New York state back in the 80s and never paid them. Suckstonohaveitcomputerizedassholes!!!!1111 Yeah, that camping ticket sounds kind of heavy handed and not entirely easy to determine if you are pitching your tent in the right place or not. I don't think I'll ever camp there anyway, but thanks for the heads up.

I got one in Indiana right before moving to CO. Waited until 2 days before my court date, went and got a CO license. Paperwork was somewhere in the middle. By the time they put the ticket on my Indiana license, it didn't exist.
Since then the victories have been fewer and further between.

Funny, I got one in Indiana right before I moved to NH... I never thought of trying to get out of it like that... Dammit.

I go up to the North Coast, out of cell phone range, beyond internet access, for four, maybe five days, and when I get back Kevin is still a heckling Heckler.

Get a life, bro. Pay the use fee and go climbing already.

That's funny, I took about three days off and find assholes still leaving snarky little comments that contribute nothing to the discussion.

Kevin, you are the asshole here that is contributing nothing. Take your ax and your need to grind it somewhere else.

Kevin Heckeler wrote:That's funny, I took about three days off and find assholes still leaving snarky little comments that contribute nothing to the discussion.

Discussion? Is that what you call this? You're like a steel leg-hold trap. Once you get hold of something, you just won't let go, even if it's a bad idea.

I imagine the fate of the Gunks without the Preserve, and what I visualize is dramatically worse than what you have, with McMansions on top of the Trapps and "No Trespassing" signs everywhere. Be thankful for what you have.

The user fee is the admission price. No such thing as a free lunch. Like it or not, the Preserve controls a commodity that is in high demand. People out here are going to be paying close to $100 for lift tickets PER DAY to go skiing. I pay $20 a day to hunt on public land, and $20 a day to launch my boat for fishing.

You've got a bargain--enjoy it while you can. If you don't like it, go elsewhere, somewhere remote and underutilized, with no admission fee, like The Cirque of the Unclimbables, or Devil's Thumb.

This is a "First-World Problem" you are whining about. It's not that important.

NC Rock Climber wrote:Kevin, you are the asshole here that is contributing nothing. Take your ax and your need to grind it somewhere else.

Snark.

TWK wrote:This is a "First-World Problem" you are whining about. It's not that important.

As much as I agree with that sentiment (Don't sweat the small stuff, and it's all small stuff), saying it doesn't make discussing this any more/less moot, unimportant, or inappropriate. Everything discussed on a rock climbing forum is a 'first world problem'. Last I checked rock/ice climbing is a first world activity. Starving people can't feed, shelter, or clothe themselves with it. They have immediate life and death struggles. Think 5.13c grade life issues. We're not curing cancer or ending starvation here. So perhaps we should just close up shop and call it a day. Mountain project is not that important.

As for the rest of your post, those points and the counterpoints have been made several times. Thanks for reading the thread.

I'll let go of this thread when people stop posting stuff I have to respond to.

Happiegrrrl wrote: But the truth is that the preserve supports it's local communities(it does have lands in 5 separate municipalities) - including the "other side of the ridge" ones which struggle mightily.

It's funny that you admonish Kevin for presenting his perspective as truth, but then you go ahead and do exactly the same thing.

One has to wonder how the people who "struggle mightily" on the other side of the ridge, including those struggling mightily to pay their property taxes, feel about the non property tax paying Mohonk Preserve funneling millions of dollars back to the Smileys. You know, the Smileys, the people who own that six-hundred dollar a night Mohonk Mountain House castle of a hotel on top of the ridge that the people who are struggling mightily on the other side of the ridge look up at every day.