Mountain Project Logo

Avalon- Poached Routes

Dan Cohen · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 15
Jimbo wrote:He's baaaack.
I take it you don't disagree with any of the points I've made.
Ian Stewart · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2010 · Points: 155
Dan Cohen wrote:Perhaps most telling is the contrast between Geir's statements (one from above, and one from this route ): "For everyone else, please respect the second pitch as a project until it has been completed. You can continue to the top via The Shmotem Pole or rap the route."
I'm curious about the outcome of this route. Originally posted Mar 21, 2010, latest comment Dec 8, 2010 and it still wasn't done. So, at least 9 months, and then no more news that I can see. The first pitch is 11-, and the 2nd pitch is "expected to be 12-". It sounds to me like maybe the people putting up the routes just aren't (or weren't) strong enough to put up the second pitch.

Personally, I think 9 months is WAY too long to "claim" a route. Really, I don't think anything more than a few weeks should be expected. If you're going to put something up, do it. If you can't do it, live with that fact and let others give it a try.

I also really find it interesting how the attitudes towards putting up new sport routes is more about "claiming it" and less about whoever just does it first. You think you can walk up to the base of a new trad-protectable climb and put your name on it? Hell no...if somebody has a rack and they want to do it, they'll hop on. FA goes to the first people that can climb it, plain and simple.)
climber pat · · Las Cruces NM · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 286

Does it bother anyone that Avalon is inside the wilderness and everyone is using power drills against forest service policy?

Christian RodaoBack · · Tucson, AZ · Joined Jul 2005 · Points: 1,486

1) I don't agree with Jim's general attitude of "it wouldn't have bothered me so it shouldn't bother you". It shows lack of empathy (in this particular situation, not as a general character trait).

2) I believe Geir is genuinely contrite and has communicated this to Steve. Possibly he also communicated an apology from Jim that we don't know about. Nevertheless, I think Jim should edit his post which is 80% insults and 20% fake apologies IF he has become more contrite since he first posted it. That's between him and his own conscience. Jim is a friend and I know his character is basically good but he can also be overly defensive when challenged.

Jimbo · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 1,310

Wow!!! I think everyone should get a life and stop freaking out over two 30 foot sport routes.

Hell Steve told Geir that he hadn't even top roped the 5.12 route. I wouldn't call that exactly working it.

There were 3 existing routes on this crag when Steve decided to bolt some more. So it's not like he had found some virgin untouched cliff.

Very interesting point about claiming a trad line versus a sport route Ian. Very thoughtful.

The argument about lots of other rock to develop works both ways. Steve could go do some of that as easily as I could. Its available to both of us.

We have, in fact, invited Steve to two different new areas to help us develop new routes. He has yet to accept.

If it would help everyone to sleep better I will happily go erase the routes (I do know how to do that) so Dan and Steve and Cristian can go up and re-bolt them. Then they can feel vindicated and all the world will smile at the heinous wrong that has been righted. Global warming will reverse itself and no one will ever go hungry again. The angles will sing and evil will forever be banished from the earth.

Dan as usual your entire argument is based on hearsay and half truths. Didn't work for Mitt and it won't work for you. Though I have no doubt you will regale us with a interminably long missive on why your two cents is anything more than just that.

Maybe after a thousand or so new routes over 30 years I don't take this shit as seriously as some of you obviously do!!

You all need to get a life and figure out what's really important. This isn't. Trust me on that, I know.

Greg D · · Here · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 883

Wow! And I thought Boulder people were bickering tards. You guys are ridiculous. If you see a possible route, put it up or shut up. If someone gets to it first, tough Shit.

If you kiss a girl on the cheek and someone boinks her a week later do you piss and moan on the internet that she was yours'.

Christian RodaoBack · · Tucson, AZ · Joined Jul 2005 · Points: 1,486

Like I said, in the end you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. The fact that I tried is good enough for me. And apparently Geir's apology was good enough for Steve. So there's nothing left to do.

J Q · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 50
Greg D wrote: If you kiss a girl on the cheek and someone boinks her a week later do you piss and moan on the internet that she was yours'.
No but that doesn't stop me from continually fanaticizing of what could have been. I mean, she could have been the one!

Christian wrote: So there's nothing left to do. .
Except to keep bitching.
Geir www.ToofastTopos.com · · Tucson/DMR · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 2,751

Only Dan Ayers-Cohen could have the incredible, deluded arrogance to assume he knows the thoughts and motivations of people he's hardly (if ever) met.

I apologized to Steve online and via phone call for foregoing the courtesy call prior to installing those routes. I openly took responsibility for this omission, and though I don't feel Steve had claim to these routes by placing an anchor on one of them, I was genuinely sorry that I upset him. He is free to do whatever he wants with those routes; I will sleep just fine at night regardless of how they turn out. I am sure Jim will too.

For the record, I do not care what DAC thinks, nor do I bother to read his endless verbal diarrhea and comply with his demands that I read and respond to his essay-length hate emails. What he thinks is not even a tiny consideration in my decision making as a climber, which is far more careful and responsible than he pretends to understand and portray.

Ian, since you asked, as far as I know High Man on the Shmotem Pole is an open project. I am pretty sure Jon and Mike stopped working it and are not planning to return, but obviously you could confirm that by contacting them. They are both on MP.

Jon Zucco · · Denver, CO · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 245

I started to type up a reply, but ended up heading into essay territory.

I'll just say, this is a very complicated issue. Climbing is about a lot of different things for a lot of different kinds of people. Just remember that some people take this sport/way of life very seriously.

Respect and communication. Two words that resonate in all aspects of what we do... Let's not forget to practice both regularly.

Old Crusty · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2011 · Points: 0

For goodness sake. I thought climbing was about having fun and pushing your own limits. I guess it's become a bitch fest and "I put up this route before you did" competition. Are you really complaining about who drilled holes into a rock first?

Sorry... it's pathetic. Please, go suffer on a big wall or alpine route for a while. It's more credible to argue who's balls froze worst than this pathetic drivel.

Daryl Allan · · Sierra Vista, AZ · Joined Sep 2006 · Points: 1,040
Jon Zucco wrote:... this is a very complicated issue.
I disagree.

Jon Zucco wrote:... Respect and communication. Two words that resonate in all aspects of what we do... Let's not forget to practice both regularly.
I wholeheartedly agree.
David Sampson · · Tempe AZ, · Joined Sep 2006 · Points: 1,207

It seems easiest to let inflammatory comments from DC (or anyone) just fade into digital memory. While I respect his right to his opinion, when an agenda is at hand the conversation has been hijacked.

It also seems to me that there is nothing here to be done (as Christian has pointed out). Geir and Steven have spoken (communicated).

Jim has stated his position.

Agree or disagree with it, or them, or anyone we all have our own closets to clean.

Dan Cohen · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 15
Geir wrote:For the record, I do not care what DAC thinks, nor do I bother to read his endless verbal diarrhea and comply with his demands that I read and respond to his essay-length hate emails.
Please produce the multiple hate emails that you claim exist, as well as my demands that you read them. Being that none of these exist, your claim amounts to defamation. Let's stick to facts, okay?

Geir wrote:I apologized to Steve online and via phone call for foregoing the courtesy call prior to installing those routes. I openly took responsibility for this omission, and though I don't feel Steve had claim to these routes by placing an anchor on one of them, I was genuinely sorry that I upset him.


What purpose would calling Steve to tell him you are taking his routes serve? According to your current position (however different than your previous position), that an anchor as a claim on a route is illegitimate, you would have nothing to apologize for. Being that Steve was upset by you and Jim taking his routes, a phone call to tell him your plans would only serve to rub salt in the wound. This sort of two-faced behavior is precisely the political gamesmanship I referred to in my initial post.

Geir wrote:Ian, since you asked, as far as I know High Man on the Shmotem Pole is an open project. I am pretty sure Jon and Mike stopped working it and are not planning to return, but obviously you could confirm that by contacting them. They are both on MP.
This final paragraph is the most stunning of all. Two paragraphs before, you wrote that an anchor is not a legitimate claim to a route. In a complete reversal, you then suggested that Ian contact Jon and Mike to find out if the route is an open project, thereby reverting to your previous position that an anchor is a legitimate claim. That must be a record for contradictory statements in one post!
Dan Cohen · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 15

Jim,

While others may be willing to give you a pass, I will not. I can not stop you from vigilante chopping or poaching routes, but when steal from the community you can be sure I'll be there to call it out. Certainly, you don't have to engage me, and you can continue to throw empty insults (and the occasional private message about your personal dislike for me. Do you remember that?) Of course, none of that is of any substance. I recommend, rather, that you actually consider the perspective of others.

Claiming that my argument is inaccurate and has no merit, but refusing to dissect any logic amounts only to posturing. If you believe me to be as truthful as Mitt Romney (which is especially ironic considering Geir's epic flip-flop), surely it should be easy to refute my logic.

Jimbo wrote:The argument about lots of other rock to develop works both ways. Steve could go do some of that as easily as I could. Its available to both of us.


Your argument doesn't make sense. Steve went to an area that wasn't being developed; you didn't. He was working on new routes; you were aware of this and you poached them anyway. Had you been working on the routes first, and he took them, he would have stolen them. Understanding how this concept works requires under It's called common courtesy, as several people on this thread have referred to. Considering how times that has been referenced on this thread, and it hasn't resonated with any of your writing, I think it is safe to say that you have no reverence for it.

The excuse that "this isn't important" doesn't hold water either. The importance of rock climbing is personal and completely subjective. Simply because you don't care about the pastime you have spent the last 30 years pursuing doesn't mean others don't. It's a cheap cop out.

Any climber who isn't in your circle has to be worried that you and Geir will sniff out their projects and poach them. The only people giving you a pass on this thread are those who are in your circle, who do not have to worry about having a route stolen.

It is important to know that Steve didn't abandon the routes. He couldn't drill them because his battery was being rebuilt. Are there any special allowances extenuating circumstances for those outside your circle of acquaintances? If someone is in the middle of creating a route that takes more than a day (imagine that!), and a family member dies, is it acceptable to take their route?
Dan Cohen · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 15
David Arthur Sampson wrote:It seems easiest to let inflammatory comments from DC (or anyone) just fade into digital memory. While I respect his right to his opinion, when an agenda is at hand the conversation has been hijacked.
David Arthur Sampson,

I understand you have a personal connection to Geir, and perhaps do not like the idea of accountability. I am unwilling to sweep this under the rug.

I find it rather dubious that Jim and Geir resort to grade school level name-calling, and yet you see my comments as inflammatory. Please, what inflammatory comments are you referring to?

What agenda of mine do you see beyond calling out route-poaching?
This thread is exactly on topic. The title is "Avalon - Poached Routes." That is precisely what I am talking about.

Simply because Steve does want to involve himself in this conflict, as most do not, does not mean Jim and Geir are absolved of any wrongdoing. The fact is neither of them have given a legitimate apology. Both have given a fake apology, which is more insulting than no apology at all.
NC Rock Climber · · The Oven, AKA Phoenix · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 60

So Dan, what do you think about the Gunks?

mountainproject.com/v/gunks…

Dan Cohen · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 15

I don't frequent Mountain Project often, as the discourse tends to be rather uncivil. I haven't followed the Gunks thread so I can't comment on it.

What are your opinions on this thread?

NC Rock Climber · · The Oven, AKA Phoenix · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 60

Avalon was where Excalibur was forged. Beyond that, I have no opinion. It seems to me the issue was resolved long before you started posting.

Dan Cohen · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 15
NC Rock Climber wrote:Avalon was where Excalibur was forged. Beyond that, I have no opinion. It seems to me the issue was resolved long before you started posting.
I can see how it appears that the issue was resolved based on Steven's post. I spoke to Steve (the gentleman who had his routes poached) this weekend in person, and it was quite apparent that there was no resolution. I think his response was an effort to avoid conflict instead of achieve resolution. Geir and Jim's posturing, faulty logic and fake apologies are quite evident that they remain unapologetic.

It is clear that Jim and Geir have no qualms about poaching routes. I certainly understand Steve's desire to avoid conflict, but this sort of episode is bound to repeat if they are not held accountable for their actions.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Arizona & New Mexico
Post a Reply to "Avalon- Poached Routes"

Log In to Reply

Join the Community

Create your FREE account today!
Already have an account? Login to close this notice.

Get Started.