Aid Sequence Efficiency

Just got chewed up for suggesting this as an efficient aid sequence...
Thought I'd throw this idea to you dogs and -HOPEFULLY- receive some constructive feedback

I've been pre-chewed here: mountainproject.com/v/best-… so please save the hate speech and help an enthusiastic beginner out...

The sequence:
1) Place piece. Be sure carabiner on piece is oriented so that when you fifi in to top step you are fifing into the spine side of the 'biner.
2) Clip ladder to piece with non locking keylock carabiner (easy removal)
3) Clip adjustable daisy to piece (keylock again recommended)
4) Perform your bounce test if piece is suspect
5) Climb ladder using the sling of the cam as a handhold (place it shallow, or use grab loop on ladder if it's buried/ it's a nut)
6) Attach your quickdraw to the carabiner on the piece attempting to load the spine side of the biner
7) Top step by leaning back on your fifi (I am using this word to describe any method of clipping in short to the piece be it a real fifi hook, a draw or a 'biner) and generating rotational energy that allows your body to swing up and lever back. Fifi length is the single most important aspect of your aid setup. How tight your harness is, how long your quickdraw is, what size carabiners are on your draw, the circumference of your belay loop all make a difference. I have a large belay loop and have taken to simply fifing with two non lockers to get the perfect length...
8) Place high piece. This is where the sequence has options. You are no longer weighting your daisy so you need to decide whether to clip your daisy to the piece as you place it so it cannot be dropped or if it is solid enough that you feel confident clipping your aid ladder to it, leaving it unattached to yourself, and THEN attaching the daisy to it. Bomber cam? No worries. Suspect micro offset in a small pin scar? Attach that daisy AS you place the piece...
9) Attach ladder.
10) Attach daisy if you decided not to before
11) Bounce test
12) Transition to high aid ladder
13) Unclip fifi
14) Retrieve bottom aid ladder and clip to harness
15) Clip rope to original carabiner on piece
16) REPEAT

I would suggest never adjusting the length of your adjustable daisy while climbing. It adds two steps that will slow you down. As soon as you transition to the high aid ladder, climb it and fifi in. You may be tempted to rest by yarding on your adjustable daisy so that it holds you, however this makes it much too short to attach to your next high piece when you are top stepping. You will have to take the time in your top step to use both hands to release the buckle and make the daisy long enough to clip the high ladder.

I'm going to tell you the same thing everyone else will. Go climb some aid. Mileage is the only way to find out what works best for YOU. Every does it a little bit different. You live in Colorado, there has to be some aid out there, even if its not super long its good practice. My first aid climb was a little 2 pitch climb. Find someone interested in practicing, and go have a good time. You'll find ways to shave time off as you go. The best advice I ever got (for up to c2, maybe not for harder aid) was don't hang on your daisy, as soon as you place a piece, march right to the top of you aiders, then place again.

Get two daisies and clip them to the biners your ladders are clipped to. You're going to drop a ladder if they aren't somehow connected to your harness at all times.

I use two daisies, one for each aider. this way you don't have to unclip and clip them constantly. Won't drop it like stated above and it's way faster.

supertopo.com/a/How-To-Big-…

Read this and watch CMac's videos. They are a good start. THen go to your local crag and run up and down a bunch of pitches (not popular free routes of course)

Yeah Dylan, it's simple: go aid climb. Figure it out, then you won't need someone else to tell you if it works or not.

It's sort of like trying to tell you how to walk and then how to transition to running and then telling you how to run. Really, there are as many different ways to do it as there are aid moves on a single pitch.

Place a piece, bounce test it or not, move up, clip into your lower piece, grab your old set of aiders, move up, scope your next pieces, on and on and on.

Dylan Weldin wrote:Just got chewed up for suggesting this as an efficient aid sequence... Thought I'd throw this idea to you dogs and -HOPEFULLY- receive some constructive feedback I've been pre-chewed here: mountainproject.com/v/best-… so please save the hate speech and help an enthusiastic beginner out... The sequence: 1) Place piece. Be sure carabiner on piece is oriented so that when you fifi in to top step you are fifing into the spine side of the 'biner. 2) Clip ladder to piece with non locking keylock carabiner (easy removal) 3) Clip adjustable daisy to piece (keylock again recommended) 4) Perform your bounce test if piece is suspect 5) Climb ladder using the sling of the cam as a handhold (place it shallow, or use grab loop on ladder if it's buried/ it's a nut) 6) Attach your quickdraw to the carabiner on the piece attempting to load the spine side of the biner 7) Top step by leaning back on your fifi (I am using this word to describe any method of clipping in short to the piece be it a real fifi hook, a draw or a 'biner) and generating rotational energy that allows your body to swing up and lever back. Fifi length is the single most important aspect of your aid setup. How tight your harness is, how long your quickdraw is, what size carabiners are on your draw, the circumference of your belay loop all make a difference. I have a large belay loop and have taken to simply fifing with two non lockers to get the perfect length... 8) Place high piece. This is where the sequence has options. You are no longer weighting your daisy so you need to decide whether to clip your daisy to the piece as you place it so it cannot be dropped or if it is solid enough that you feel confident clipping your aid ladder to it, leaving it unattached to yourself, and THEN attaching the daisy to it. Bomber cam? No worries. Suspect micro offset in a small pin scar? Attach that daisy AS you place the piece... 9) Attach ladder. 10) Attach daisy if you decided not to before 11) Bounce test 12) Transition to high aid ladder 13) Unclip fifi 14) Retrieve bottom aid ladder and clip to harness 15) Clip rope to original carabiner on piece 16) REPEAT I would suggest never adjusting the length of your adjustable daisy while climbing. It adds two steps that will slow you down. As soon as you transition to the high aid ladder, climb it and fifi in. You may be tempted to rest by yarding on your adjustable daisy so that it holds you, however this makes it much too short to attach to your next high piece when you are top stepping. You will have to take the time in your top step to use both hands to release the buckle and make the daisy long enough to clip the high ladder.

It's obvious you've got the basics of aiding down. Now get out there and try it. You will know within a few pitches whether or not you like your system.

Climb. Learn. REPEAT. :-)

Having a single adjustable daisy and fifi hook seems illogical. Just use two adjustable daises and no fifi hook. I went from traditional daises and a fifi to an adjustable setup and it sped up my climbing a lot. Or be bad ass like Mark and go daisy-less and you'll go even faster.

Steve86 wrote:Having a single adjustable daisy and fifi hook seems illogical. Just use two adjustable daises and no fifi hook. I went from traditional daises and a fifi to an adjustable setup and it sped up my climbing a lot. Or be bad ass like Mark and go daisy-less and you'll go even faster.

I like this idea, but I tried it the other day at Indian Creek and I found that even fully cinched up I could not top step effectively as the daisy was too long. I could try girthing the daisy through my tie in points to shorten it further...

I guess I have two reasons that I am avoiding the two daisies:
1) I only wanted to spend the money on one (lame excuse, I know)
2) I wanted to avoid the cluster of two that get tangled and complicate the belay loop (better excuse? According to this guy, it is... mountainproject.com/v/big_w…)

To everyone else, thanks for your support. I'm looking forward to getting some mileage under my belt.

Dylan,

That's a lot of why I use just an adjustable fifi hook rather than a daisy. I'm short, so the sewn bits of all adjustable daisies make them too long for me to use to top step or even get as tight as I need to a piece.

Get a hook like this, set it up with some slippery 6 mil and girth hitch it to your leg and harness tie in loops.

Kong Adjustable Fifi

I have a third adjustable daisy that I call my Third Arm. It has no aider attached to it. I find it very handy when crawling around belay anchors, and especially on hard aid when I am scared and like to be attached to two pieces while bounce-testing a third.

I also use the Kong adjustable fifi as shown in Mark's photo above. One problem with Mark's rig, and he has probably figured this out by now, is that the big pullout 3mm cord on top of the hook has a big loop in it which will always be falling over the front end of the hook, and annoyingly hooking itself. This is easily remedied by wrapping the loop in duct tape to make it a single stand that can't hang up.

The Kong hook calls for 7mm cord, but that is far too thick. As Mark suggests, find the slipperiest 6mm cord you can find, and use that. The overall length of the 6mm once rigged only needs to be about a foot and a half. Your adjustable daisies will do the rest of the lifting for you.

The problem with using slippery 6mm cord is that it sometimes slips when you least want it to! Accordingly, get into the habit of throwing a quick slipknot into the free end of the 6mm cord once you have cinched the fifi up to the desired length. This will prevent the cord from suddenly inverting within the holes in the hook, and suddenly and dangerously flying you out to the full length of the cord!

Adjustable fifis are Emphatically The Shit for fine-tuning your top-stepping.