GriGri 2 vs. Trango Cinch

Alex g wrote: I bet it gets pretty hot after letting your climber down

I don't know where you're getting that info, but it seems to be off. I climb in the Red frequently with a GG2. Neither my partner or I find the GG2 to be too hot when lowering off routes 40-100 feet in length.

FYI, devices WILL heat up on longer lowers. Saying that the GG2 gets abnormally hot has not been my experience. Maybe you ought not to lower your partner so fast?

I'm a religious Cinch user. That being said, I belayed on a Grigri for a long time and I also believe in giving everything a fair chance.

I got a chance to play with a co-workers at the gym the other night. To me it feels just the same as the previous generation as far as feeding is concerned. It does lower a little smoother thanks to the two stage handle. I think the biggest benefit of the new Grigri is the rope diameters that it's rated to handle now.

I still prefer my Cinch for a couple of reasons, and they're entirely personal. I like it better because it's smaller and more compact. I like the simplicity in it's design. I like it better than a Grigri for bringing up a second. I like it better then a Grigri for setting up an emergency pulley system or for setting up a tensioned line with a pulley system.

I like feeding slack to the leader better because unlike the Grigri, you're still not overriding the camming mechanism open to feed rope. I know, you hold the Cinch in the open position to feed rope as well, the difference is that the top plate is still entirely free to rotate so it's not being forcefully held in the open position.

I also like it in the weird way that it makes me stay in my safety checking routine. Because I know it won't work backwards at all unlike the Grigri, it keeps me in my routine of checking to make sure it's loaded correctly. Every time I load it I give the climbers strand a sharp yank. Every time my belayer loads it, I give the climber strand a yank. And it keeps me checking my knots and harnesses while I'm checking to make sure it's functioning correctly.

Some of my preferences are more personal than others and some are more use based. None the less, I'll be sticking with my Cinch. I don't think either device has enough over the other to merit picking one based on usability or function alone.

Both need to be learned properly and understood fully. It really is important. It's easy to go out to the crag and see someone grabbing the Grigri and throwing out slack, but that's not the proper way to use it. Same goes for the Cinch. You have to understand how to use it properly in feeding, braking, and lowering modes just like you have to understand the Grigri. The problem people run into with the Cinch is that they don't take the time to learn it properly. They approach it like they approach the Grigri, which is more forgiving to the untrained user as it's easier to over ride and more intuitive to lower with. That's not to say that the Cinch is harder to lower with, it's just different and requires a different technique than the Grigri.

Sorry, I know that was drawn out. My point is is that they're different devices and almost nothing about one transfers to using the other. Understand and know your equipment before you go putting it to use.

Gri-Gri. I have a cinch, and I have been loving it for two years. I am going to buy a gri 2 as soon as I can. Anybody want to buy my cinch AKA The Sketch?

Rich Schreckengost wrote:ATC Guide and ditch your hang-doggin partner.

To my partners: please don't ditch your hang-doggin partner.

Jason S. wrote:Gri-Gri. I have a cinch, and I have been loving it for two years. I am going to buy a gri 2 as soon as I can. Anybody want to buy my cinch AKA The Sketch?

AKA totally flawed test using 1st gen cinch?

redlude97 wrote: This a clear misinterpretation of the causes of the accident. The device was not at fault. A cinch also holds a fall without holding the rope at all(even thought it is not recommended). The climber decked because of belayer error, which could have happened with any device.

May I ask where your source of information is? Seems really bad form to blame the belayer 100% without any first-hand knowledge.

Alicia Sokolowski wrote: May I ask where your source of information is? Seems really bad form to blame the belayer 100% without any first-hand knowledge.

From the darkside accident thread on rc.com
user rocclimber30
My account of the events leading up to the accident involving Mike Tucker:

I was belaying a friend on Darth Mall, which is about 15 feet to the left of Elephant Man. At the time of the accident my climber was in direct to the 3rd or 4th bolt. My eyes were on Mike as he smoothly climbed past the 4th bolt and entered the crux of the climb. He took what should of been a normal lead fall a couple of feet above the 4th bolt. He did NOT skip any bolt nor was he pulling rope at the time of the fall. While falling mike got into a textbook position. He was in a cat like position with his feet extended in front of him ready to impact the wall. He free fell for about 10-15 feet before a little bit of rope drag from the rope running through the Trango Cinch could be heard. The rope drag was not enough to slow him or make any difference in the fall. As he fell the belayer came into my peripheral view. I could see that he was out of balance and fumbling with the Trango Cinch. I immediately lowered my climber and proceeded to administer first aid.

Not being familiar with the Trango Cinch, i could not tell by looking at it if it were loaded correctly during the fall. After stabilizing Mike 15-30 minutes after the initial fall, i had a chance to inspect the Trango Cinch and do a pull test in which the device seemed to be set up correctly and working properly.

Analysis: Belayer Error.

i. Device was set up backwards.

OR

2. Device was set up correctly and the belayer was caught off guard accidentally clamping down on the Trango Cinch in an attempt to balance himself.

user ltz
This is definitively NOT an official accident report and, to my knowledge, none of the parties involved has been contacted by any institution for an authoritative report. That said, no information is being actively repressed. There are no people to my knowledge withholding information. So, know in advance that what I post here is a third- and fourth-hand summary of what I have been able to piece together from various sources, including the belayer, who is continuing to work through his own recollection of this horrific accident. I know that the people involved in the fall and rescue intend to contact the organizations that report annually on Climbing and Alpine injuries and fatalities. For those of you seeking non-conjecture, authoritative finality, keep an eye out there.

The bottom line is that with any ground fall, if the rope or harness didn't break and bolts didn't fail - and in this case they didn't - the error is a human one. The failures that led to Mike's fall began long before his group hiked into the Darkside and they revolve around a set of beliefs and poor safety habits that are, unfortunately, all too pervasive in the climbing community. This includes “quickie” peer instruction for lead climbing/lead belaying; an over-reliance in the effectiveness of lock-assist devices; a willingness on the part of more experienced climbers to put less experienced belayers in situations requiring difficult catches (I've been told, and those of you who have belayed on Elephant man know, that it is a tough catch); and a general ambivalence toward the use of helmets - and I'm guilty of this too.

The belay device used at the time of Mike's fall was a Cinch, and the belayer inexperienced at using it. Clearly, it did not engage. Reports from the site indicate that the device was correctly loaded. Reports from the site also indicate that the belayer did not have a fixed hand on the brake. So, what this means is that the device did not engage and that the belayer was not using one of the fundamental actions required of a belayer: braking.

We know that a belayer should always have a fixed hand on the brake. But this accident presents a more complex situation that requires a look at what went wrong. On a Cinch, the device will not engage if 1) the device is manually held down, per Petzl's instructional videos on feeding rope to a lead climber; 2) the device is tipped on its side, which prevents rotation of the Cinch plates; or 3) if you belay from a position in which the pull force on the device is perpendicular to the belayer. This last scenario is particularly prevalent in a lead situation where the rope runs out (rather than up) from a belayer to the first bolt. Because of the steepness of Elephant man and the talus at the bottom, the latter situation seems to be the most likely.

Just because you know how to do something doesn't mean you know how to effectively teach it to someone else. What’s more, the people you choose to instruct become your responsibility. If you aren't qualified to teach someone don't pretend you are. Send them to someone who is qualified. And, if you're on the receiving end of instruction from your "buddy who's been doing it, like, forever and is really good" - use caution. Your instruction may well be inadequate.

Based on the information provided, no hand on brake strand, belayer error. Period. This is ignoring evidence that the belayer was holding the cinch open in addition to not holding the brake strand.

redlude97 wrote: From the darkside accident thread on rc.com user rocclimber30 My account of the events leading up to the accident involving Mike Tucker: ...My eyes were on Mike as he smoothly climbed past the 4th bolt and entered the crux of the climb. He took what should of been a normal lead fall a couple of feet above the 4th bolt. He did NOT skip any bolt nor was he pulling rope at the time of the fall.

All the reports of the people participating in the rescue said only three bolts were clipped, but this says he was above the fourth bolt, but not skipping bolts. Also, this person admits they are not familiar with the cinch and posits it might have been backwards when those performing the rescue noted everything was set up correctly.

I can find a number of accounts that say there was no indication of belayer error on rc.com. There are posts on the same thread that state ground fall from the position of the fourth bolt is likely by the nature of the climb and those that state the exact opposite. It is a lot of speculation, IMHO, and not enough facts to place blame on someone who, I am sure, is suffering long term fallout from feelings of guilt.

I am not saying I know what happened either. I just hesitate to say it is X person's fault, that's that, tied up with a bow.

Alicia Sokolowski wrote: All the reports of the people participating in the rescue said only three bolts were clipped, but this says he was above the fourth bolt, but not skipping bolts. Also, this person admits they are not familiar with the cinch and posits it might have been backwards when those performing the rescue noted everything was set up correctly. I can find a number of accounts that say there was no indication of belayer error on rc.com. There are posts on the same thread that state ground fall from the position of the fourth bolt is likely by the nature of the climb and those that state the exact opposite. It is a lot of speculation, IMHO, and not enough facts to place blame on someone who, I am sure, is suffering long term fallout from feelings of guilt. I am not saying I know what happened either. I just hesitate to say it is X person's fault, that's that, tied up with a bow.

FYI, the Darkside Accident was belay failure. The climber did not skip a bolt, fell from the crux, and was dropped. The report quoted here is definitive. The statement that only three were clipped were made based on a super tense, super stressful scene. To be clear, we were more worried about making sure Mike got out of there alive than pointing fingers. I still won't blame in anger, but the truth is important.

For what it is worth, I really hope the belayer is doing ok. I would be a lot more fucked up than I am if I were in his shoes. An accident like this affects everyone involved more than you can guess. However, I won't pull a punch and say it wasn't his error. Mike wasn't run out and the Cinch didn't fail. Trying to put this on either of those two is flat out erroneous.

shotwell wrote: FYI, the Darkside Accident was belay failure. The climber did not skip a bolt, fell from the crux, and was dropped. The report quoted here is definitive. The statement that only three were clipped were made based on a super tense, super stressful scene. To be clear, we were more worried about making sure Mike got out of there alive than pointing fingers. I still won't blame in anger, but the truth is important. For what it is worth, I really hope the belayer is doing ok. I would be a lot more fucked up than I am if I were in his shoes. An accident like this affects everyone involved more than you can guess. However, I won't pull a punch and say it wasn't his error. Mike wasn't run out and the Cinch didn't fail. Trying to put this on either of those two is flat out erroneous.

Jesus, this is such a sad story. I agree completely that the truth is important. I can read from your tone that it is not about anger or blame. I echo your sentiment, I hope the belayer is doing ok. I also have no idea how I would deal with this type of guilt. I hope you are okay too, being first responder on this type of scene can stick with you.

shoo wrote: You have this exactly backwards. Inexperienced climbers, in general, should typically NOT be using assisted locking belay devices. The temptation to replace competence with convenience has resulted in a number of dropped climbers. Experience climbers will often use assisted locking devices because it is often very convenient to have a devices which, once locked, stays that way until needed. This makes all kinds of things easier, especially for sport climbers.

Your argument here makes no sense when it comes to a gym setting. 90% of the climbers that come to the gym are there for their first time, and have absolutely no desire to better establish their belay technique. With that in mind, auto-locking devices are absolutely essential in creating a safe climbing atmosphere for the regular public.

Conversely, I agree with your opinion about belaying outside and with new climbers WHO WANT to hone their technique.

Summary, there is a huge difference between gym climbers and outdoor climbers.

Woodchuck ATC wrote:Has anyone considered the Click Up? It's much cheaper and a nice easy tool to use. Not as fool proof as the grigri, but still locks off the climber with tension or a fall. I love using mine.

The click-up is NOT an automatic locking belay device like a Gri-gri or a Cinch. Automatic locking would consist of being able to lock up a falling climber without any intervention from the belayer, in situations where the belayer is incapacitated.

So, I don't see any posts about operating errors with the grigri/grigri2 that have led to excessive falls or decking. This seems to back up the assertion that the cinch is more prone to operator errors. But please bring up grigri2 related incidents (I've never had problems with mine and don't forsee having problems unless i set it up backwards).

Nate Young wrote: The click-up is NOT an automatic locking belay device like a Gri-gri or a Cinch. Automatic locking would consist of being able to lock up a falling climber without any intervention from the belayer, in situations where the belayer is incapacitated.

Neither the cinch or the gri-gri are automatic belay devices either. The proper term is "assisted braking belay device".

From the Trango Cinch manual.
"IMPORTANT! The Cinch is an assisted-braking belay device. It is NOT an automatic belay device and therefore requires constant monitoring and control."

Likewise the Petzl manual states that you must always have your hand on the rope.

Perhaps the calling and treating of these devices as automatic belay devices is the cause of many of the accidents.

The Alpine Up and Click up are both "assisted braking devices" and will generally auto lock like a Grigri or Cinch. All of these devices require the belayer's hand control the braking side of the rope.

The difference between the alpine up and click up is that alpine up has two slots rather than one slot which allows for double rope repels and belaying with twin/double ropes. The alpine up also has a configuration which turns the device into a friction device similar to a ATC for situation where you might want a more dynamic belay. The alpine up works on 7.7 - 10.5 mm ropes. It can also be used in an auto-block mode.

I have an Alpine Up and it is really a great tool, easily the best I have used. It works very well on the thinner ropes commonly used today, locks quickly and repels well. I have totally given up on my ATC guide, Petzl Reverso, etc. Also much nice than the Mammut Smart devices.

Steve R wrote:So, I don't see any posts about operating errors with the grigri/grigri2 that have led to excessive falls or decking. This seems to back up the assertion that the cinch is more prone to operator errors. But please bring up grigri2 related incidents (I've never had problems with mine and don't forsee having problems unless i set it up backwards).

I witnessed a ground fall at my local climbing gym (dropped by belayer misusing gri-gri; climber carted out on stretcher).

A friend was dropped from the top of the wall at the gym (belayer misusing gri-gri; result: four broken vertebra).

A friend of a friend was dropped from top of the wall at the gym (belayer misusing gri-gri; result: broken back, no longer climbs).

For what it's worth, I was once dropped in the gym by someone using an ATC (belayer decided to remove her shoes while lead belaying me; she lost control of the rope when I fell; result: I was lucky to escape without injury but that was the last time I roped up with her).

Dave Holliday wrote: I witnessed a ground fall at my local climbing gym (dropped by belayer misusing gri-gri; climber carted out on stretcher). A friend was dropped from the top of the wall at the gym (belayer misusing gri-gri; result: four broken vertebra). A friend of a friend was dropped from top of the wall at the gym (belayer misusing gri-gri; result: broken back, no longer climbs). For what it's worth, I was once dropped in the gym by someone using an ATC (belayer decided to remove her shoes while lead belaying me; she lost control of the rope when I fell; result: I was lucky to escape without injury but that was the last time I roped up with her).

Jesus has all the really happened? Two of your friends decked, you decked, and you witnessed someone else deck?

Sounds like you guys need to learn how to belay, remind me what gym you climb at so I know to never go there! I have been climbing in the gym 4 or 5 years now and never seen anyone deck..

Bottom line: GriGris, Cinches and gym climbing are dangerous.

Dave Holliday wrote: Yes, that all happened. (I've also witnessed one very serious accident outdoors involving people I didn't know.) The incidents occurred at two different gyms. Clearly, the belayers who dropped their leaders need to learn how to properly use their belay devices. I don't climb with any of the people who dropped their leaders (they were partners of my friends but not my partners). I do climb with my friend who was dropped and I completely trust him to catch me (in fact, he has caught a couple of my falls outdoors). I hope that clears things up for you.

thats a lot of grounders ... i mean the gri gri is in no ways full proof or "hands free" ... but there are a lot of climbers who use it soloing ... if you use it properly it is perfectly safe, and safer than an ATC in areas with rockfall ...

something is really wrong if you are dropped or know people who are constantly being dropped ...

sport weenies take many many many falls working their projects with gri gris ... most dont get dropped, that i know of anyways

The December 2012 issue of Rock and Ice has an article by Chris Carithers about his being dropped, in the gym, by a belayer using a Grigri. It's an interesting read. Sounds like the belayer in that case had not used a Grigri before and likely thought the lowering lever was the engaging lever.
A friend of mine was in a class at a local gym just last week and the climber on the route next to him decked from near the top of the wall when the belayer, using a Grigri, dropped him. Miraculously the climber walked away from it. The belayer had pretty severe rope burns on his hands.
People need to learn to use their belay devices, no matter the device.

Dave Holliday wrote: I agree but I didn't describe a scenario where people are constantly being dropped. It happened to me once in my ten years of climbing. It happened to my friend once in his climbing career (the person who dropped him has been climbing for over thirty years; that was his only incident of the sort). I can't speak for the people involved in the other incidents I described because I don't personally know them. Decking once because of belayer error is one too many times, but it happens; that's the reality. Based on the lackadaisical belaying I see at the gym (and sometimes outdoors), I'm surprised we don't read about it happening more. But a few do. For the record, I use a Cinch for all my belaying needs. I've never dropped anyone.

but all it takes is someone to do it once to someone ... and theyre dead

like u said dont climb with droppers ... and there should be no forgiveness either IMO ... theyve basically messed up someones life

theres a total crap culture IMO where some people who dont know how to use climbing gear go out and say they do ... or refuse to correct their mistakes ... and put others people lives at risk

i once saw a person belaying with an inverted device in the gym ... i told him politely and he simply ignored it, he was totally new as well, didnt want to admit that he did something wrong ...