Eldo sucks AKA the crag blasphemer's thread

JohnWesely wrote: I disagree with this.I thought the quality of the climbing in yosemite to be pretty underwhelming. The length and convenience more than makes up for it, but it was rare that I did a pitch I would bother to do if it were on the ground at a local sandstone crag.

I haven't climbed in the Valley but I can think of a few dozen pitches that I'd absolutely LOVE to climb. Maybe you missed them? Who knows - I guess there is a reason I spent so much time in the High Sierra and the Needles last summer instead of joining the shit show in the Valley.

PS, if you had climbed at the Needles you'd understand the granite thing.

willeslinger wrote: Very true. Gorgeous routes. Basalt corner cracks are quite awesome.

Sorry to be pedantic, but Devils Tower is not basalt but rather it is composed of phonolite. However, the rest of what you say is spot on.

Eldo is the best "purple granite" any one's ever seen...

Eldo only sucks to some folks because it's ridiculously hard climbing. I have climbed some great routes that I would consider 5.7 to 5.8 only to discover that it's an Eldo 5.6.

Hence the obnoxious comment, "that would be 6 in Eldo."

Alex Quitiquit wrote: also +1 for granite ruining your perspective on everything. once you've flavored some unbelievable granite routes, including alpine exposure and perfect friction filled splitters, you lose relative understanding

Why is it, then, that most of the world's best climbers prefer limestone???

jmeizis wrote: I don't like that definition. Maybe it's because I'm poor but I can't think of any rock climbing destination outside of North America that I'm willing to fly to.

So your definition of "world class" necessitates that it only occur on one continent (out of 7 possible), and in only one country?

Admittedly, I haven't climbed over seas, but a critical (if implicit) part of any definition is that it be comparable to the very best on other continents. Otherwise, its not world class. The definition is meaningless if you're not in principle willing to check out the climbing on other continents.

Ed Wright wrote: Why is it, then, that most of the world's best climbers prefer limestone???

Because most granites don't form the good holds in steep sections like limestone does. Limestone is terrifically featured for face climbing, so the sky is the limit for steep, gymnastic, face climbing.

For crack climbing or alpine climbing, granite is where its at. I think a great many people who dislike Eldo dislike gear-protected face climbing. I know that if I'm going to climb a face, I'd prefer it be bolt protected, and if I'm going to climb a crack, it should be as singular as possible.

Reggie Walters wrote: Sorry to be pedantic, but Devils Tower is not basalt but rather it is composed of phonolite. However, the rest of what you say is spot on.

Not pedantic, that's really interesting. I always found similarities in the featured corners at Trout Creek and Frenchman's Coulee similar to Devil's Tower, assumed it was the same rock. What other climbing areas are formed from phonolite that you know of? Similar corner crack features?

I think y'all are inferring things from jmeizis' statement that he didn't mean. Admittedly what I'm about to say is the same thing. But I don't think dude is averse to exploring another nation, nor is he saying that N America is the only continent worth climbing in. Overseas travel is expensive, you could really do two, three N America trips for the price of one trip overseas. So it's hard to find fault in the sentiment that, if you're spending that money, you should spend it on some epic shit that you're really psyched on. IE, climbing a historic mountain.

willeslinger wrote: Not pedantic, that's really interesting. I always found similarities in the featured corners at Trout Creek and Frenchman's Coulee similar to Devil's Tower, assumed it was the same rock. What other climbing areas are formed from phonolite that you know of? Similar corner crack features?

I agree. The jointing is similar to the hexagonal columns at basalt areas, but the rock composition and texture are closer to granite but without the silica (quartz).

Apparently this place, Boren, in the Czech Republic is also phonolite. Don't bother booking a flight though, it looks like a world class choss pile!

Ben Dover wrote:is there an area with more deaths in the last 20 yrs. than eldo?

Bump cuz Im genuinely curios about this

As for deaths over last 20years ,I would think that Yosemite would be on top, but you might have to consider that more climbers go to Yosemite because it is a WORLD CLASS climbing area. Steve S.

I couldn't find specific data for Eldo so I estimated based on the # of victims, % of fatalities, % Eldo incidents. I get an average of 3.2 deaths per year for the period between 1998 and 2011.

John Dill reports 2.5 deaths per year for Yosemite for the period between 1970 and 1990.

The RMR report notes 5.5% of Boulder Co climbing victims died versus 6% in Yosemite (1988 Yosemite paper).

Caveats
- The % of fatalities may be higher or lower in Eldo (study for Boulder Co as a whole).
- Time periods are very different.
- There aren't good stats to normalize the deaths by the level of the activity. Dill estimates 25-50K climber-days per year.

REFERENCES
2012. Daniel A. Lack, Alison L. Sheets, Jacob M Entin; David C Christenson (Rocky Mt Rescue). Rock Climbing Rescues in Boulder County, Colorado and Eldorado Canyon State Park, Colorado, 1998–2011

John Dill. Staying Alive

Will is right, I'm not saying I'm averse to travelling outside of my own country (only been to Mexico and Canada though...) but how am I supposed to classify a place I can't afford to go to? It's not equal comparisons because the place I can afford to go to has more use to me than the place that I can only dream about and therefore will always come out on top. Does that mean you can only have an opinion on what qualifies as world class if you can afford to travel? How can you even make a comparison of areas you haven't been to?

Aside from that how do we know how people in France feel about Eldo? That's glossing over a bunch of differences in just climbing culture. Not to mention the other differences in lifestyle just because of growing up somewhere besides the US.

I'm not saying the definition is crap I just think that "you have to be willing to travel to another continent" is kind of arbitrary. You did say "working defintion", correct? Needs some more work. I think there's gotta be more teeth than just will and principle. In principle I'm willing to travel to England to go climb gritstone and drink pints at the local pub but in reality I'm not spending a whole months income to go basically pebble wrestle in the rain with out a lot of other stuff happening on the same trip.

I'm just a poor bastard who hasn't climbed outside the US though so...

Northern Norway... terrible weather, hard to get to, epic amounts of choss, moss, and bird poo.... BUT, when it's good, it's unbelievably good (see: South Pillar on Stetind (14 pitches of Yosemite-quality granite to a Bugaboos-esque summit over the sea... or 'Vestpillaren', 1500 feet of splitter cracks/corners on an island that looks like something out of a storybook). You might see another party or two if it's a sunny day and you're on a super classic route, but more likely it will just be you and the rock and the fjord across the valley with 1000+ meter walls waiting for first ascents.

I'm psyched so many of you hate Eldo!!! Keep telling everyone that will listen to you that it sucks.

Ryan Williams wrote: That's a pretty good definition. So let's see, I live in London and can be at a half dozen or more "world class" areas in less than 8 hours for a lot less than $1500. So if I were going to fly to N. America to climb, it would be at one of the following areas: - Yosemite (or anywhere in the High Sierra) - Southern Utah (not just IC but Castle Valley, etc). - Wind River Range (was gonna last year but bailed - never been) - Bugaboos - Sqamish? - Cochise Stronghold (great winter weather and no bullshit) - New River Gorge (including the Red if the weather sucks) - Gunks and Dacks because it is only a 7 hour flight and only about $600 - NC because it's my home and the flight is same as for NY

Take the (?) out from behind Squamish;-) ! It's as world class as it gets.

Ed Wright wrote: I said that and I stand by my belief. Have you ever experienced the amazing quartzite at Devil's Lake? If not, you need to stop laughing and go check it out.

I have not for good, reason, that reason being it is NOT world class. For a climbing crag to be considered World class , in many people's eyes it has to first be considered a destination. I honestly do not think very many climbers plan a trip AROUND or TO devils lake. the climbing may be phenomenal but it is not world class I can guarantee you that. Sure they may be a few climbs that would be 5-star at any crag but that still doesn't make it world class. People from the midwest travel there sure, but that is because it is the closest crag to them. There is a reason the best climbers in the world flock to other areas such as Spain, France, the valley, RRG, etc. And no it is not just because these places also offer hard climbs.

I'm sure that you love devils lake and the climbing is fabulous, but to say a place like that is world class is just silly. The location and short climbing season alone eliminate it as an ideal climbing destination in America alone, let alone the WORLD.

world class: no; mid-west class(?): yes

But enough about crappy midwest climbing, we are talking about how much eldo blows!!!!!!

Ed Wright wrote: Why is it, then, that most of the world's best climbers prefer limestone???

because the hardest routes tend to be on limestone, while the most fun alpine routes (and about half the best trad route [the other half being sandstone])tend to be on granite

mozeman wrote: I have not for good, reason, that reason being it is NOT world class. For a climbing crag to be considered World class , in many people's eyes it has to first be considered a destination. I honestly do not think very many climbers plan a trip AROUND or TO devils lake. the climbing may be phenomenal but it is not world class I can guarantee you that. Sure they may be a few climbs that would be 5-star at any crag but that still doesn't make it world class. People from the midwest travel there sure, but that is because it is the closest crag to them. There is a reason the best climbers in the world flock to other areas such as Spain, France, the valley, RRG, etc. And no it is not just because these places also offer hard climbs. I'm sure that you love devils lake and the climbing is fabulous, but to say a place like that is world class is just silly. The location and short climbing season alone eliminate it as an ideal climbing destination in America alone, let alone the WORLD. world class: no; mid-west class(?): yes But enough about crappy midwest climbing, we are talking about how much eldo blows!!!!!!

It should be noted that Ed didn't claim that Devil's Lake is world class; his claim was about the rock quality. He claim that it is the climbing area with the best rock, not that it is the best rock climbing area.

This is a really important distinction. Rock quality is just one factor in climbing quality, and it usually is not the most imporant factor in assessing the quality of an area. For me, it is probably 5th or 6th on the list, provided some minimum level of adequate rock quality. I'll take steep, physical, interesting movement on choss (Rifle, Maple, etc) any day over slabby, less interesting (to me) movement on the best rock around (Idyllwild slab climbig, etc).

So, depending on your criteria, Devil's Lake may have the best rock quality around, but that doesn't make it w aworld class climbing area.