Who wants real anchors on Vision Quest, IC?

Regarding the above, this is tust a reminder that a single pin + gear is not a poor anchor. Otherwise there is no such thing as a good one on most trad climbs. As previously mentioned, it isn't a rap route.

Hank Caylor wrote:It's the only place I really want to hang out at, for the next 10 years or so.

+100

Hank Caylor wrote: Totally fucking agree! vimeo.com/21237372

ive had the song from this awesome video stuck in my head since i saw it the other day. thanks hank

Andy Donson and I climbed this route some 14 years ago. Amongst other memorable events our ropes got stuck on the 2nd rap leaving us stranded for a few hours in the dark, snow and rain. After several attempts to free them Andy prussic-ed up the remaining line only to find that the friction of wet sandstone over a 90 degree angle was the only problem. The rappels anchors at the second station were some 15ft deep in the ledge from the lip. Is this still the decent for the route? Hank I'll Draw Eddie "The Trooper" on the back of your jean jacket, or maybe get you the Judas Priest Box set if you replace them.
Thanks Buddy

Do it Hank.

P.

Sure, trundle whatever is genuinely loose without fanfare. Doesn't require community debate.
And if one of the fixed anchors is crap, pull that pin and replace it with a fatty. However, if there is a belay with a single anchor and there is gear available, why not leave it to be a "backed up" gear anchor anyway? What's wrong with placing gear?
Those are hypothetical at this point though, as I can't perfectly recall the situation up there. What I thought I remembered at the base of the wide spot was clipping a drilled pin and integrating that into a gear anchor.

Tony B wrote:Sure, trundle whatever is genuinely loose without fanfare, and if one of the fixed anchors is crap, pull that pin and replace it with a fatty. However, if there is a belay with a single anchor and there is gear available, why not leave it to be a "backed up" gear anchor anyway? What's wrong with placing gear?

Oh man, placing gear means it's trad. IC ain't trad. Don't fool yourself.

Tony B wrote:However, if there is a belay with a single anchor and there is gear available, why not leave it to be a "backed up" gear anchor anyway?

This is something I don't really get, either. If there's suitable pro, why bother with the bolts at all? I can understand fixing/adding to the bolts if you're going to make them proper anchors that can be rapped off, but otherwise what's the motivation?

I'd like to say that if you want to replace an old manky drilled pin with a good bolt, that's fine. But a few caveats:

If the anchor is only ONE pin and gear, don't make it TWO bolts. Also, if the pins aren't set up for rappel, don't install bolts with rings or links.

I really like that there are still a few routes out there that are committing and require you to get to the top to get down - the penalty clause being an epic or having to leave gear. King of Pain is one of those - get to the top and rap down the other side... or else.

So I'm not saying that's what you're going to do Hank, I'm just putting it out there.

Again, one for one replacements are fine, but keep it real.

Josh Janes wrote:If the anchor is only ONE pin and gear, don't make it TWO bolts. Also, if the pins aren't set up for rappel, don't install bolts with rings or links.

Can you explain why you feel that way? If there's good gear then you don't need a bolt at all, and one bolt isn't suitable as a rap anchor...so I fail to see how one bolt is useful unless you're half-way up a sport climb. Am I just missing something? It seems like you're kinda saying "make it safe, but don't make it useful".

I'm with Josh. Keep desert towers adventurous, committing and exciting...

Keep it real, Hank. PS Trundle that shiiit.

Replacing shit bolts with good ones seem logical. But I do agree that the route needs to retain its adventure feeling. Don't want folk rapping the route now do we?
Thanx for taking the initative to replace junk.
::-)

I don't give a rip about the anchors....but trundling it would be great. Please do.

Ian Stewart wrote: Can you explain why you feel that way? If there's good gear then you don't need a bolt at all, and one bolt isn't suitable as a rap anchor...so I fail to see how one bolt is useful unless you're half-way up a sport climb. Am I just missing something? It seems like you're kinda saying "make it safe, but don't make it useful".

Ian, actually, I agree with you 100% - there shouldn't be bolts where there are good gear placements - I just didn't want to get into an ethics debate about chopping hardware that was put in during the FA, instead preferring to focus on the present issue. If it were up to me, which it isn't, I would just let the old pins rot and fall out without any replacement at all since they're unnecessary for anchors (there's gear) and unnecessary for the descent (there's already a rap route) - but few see it my way.

CJC wrote:why not just pull all the anchors so you have to leave gear or jump off?

Oh, I think you might mean 'Why not just pull all the anchors so you have to rap off of the existing rap route instead of rapping down through another party.'
In which case I am OK with your suggestion.

My intention is NOT to have a rap route down the existing climbing route. There is allready a designated rap route for Vision Quest. Just trundling and if there is one shitty bolt and a piece of 6' tat stretched over from a pinched piece of sand, 2 bolts(no rings or chains of course). 1 bolt seems silly UNLESS of course there is gear right there. Josh, Tony, Mia, me and most everyone else are on the same sheet of music here.

Hank Caylor wrote: Just trundling and if there is one shitty bolt and a piece of 6' tat stretched over from a pinched piece of sand, 2 bolts(no rings or chains of course). 1 bolt seems silly UNLESS of course there is gear right there. Josh, Tony, Mia, me and most everyone else are on the same sheet of music here.

One Old school #4 camalot and one smaller piece if memory serves, but it has been over a decade, so that may not be right. If that is right, then I suspect on the FA the party did not have a quiver of #4 Camalots in 1984, and thus placed the pin.

Sounds like we are on the same page. Take before/after pics for the peanut gallery.

Hank (and Tony and Josh), I'm not at all opposed to the new bolt(s) and I would surely clip them if they're there. I was just saying that I don't understand the need if there's good gear there already (which people have said there is). Like Tony and Josh have said, the old pin was likely placed back when climbers didn't have #4 cams on their racks, but I'm sure anybody in the creek today will have access to one. I for one kinda like climbing past old fixed gear as a reminder of how the hard-men did it back in the day ('84 in the case of Vision Quest, if the route info is correct). They make me feel weak and insignificant...

Anyways, thanks for actually taking some action! From the sounds of it that route is definitely in need of the trundling! Hopefully I can get on it when I'm in the creek. =)

+1 for this; " Keep desert towers adventurous, committing and exciting..."

For me that means don't create a rap route where none existed before. As for the blocks- well, sometimes it's time for them to go. Precise determination of 'when' is a bit subjective. I haven't been up there recently enough to have a valid comment on that.

My recollection of the #4+pin belay is that most parties will not have sufficient gear at that point to build an all-big gear belay.

Did you ever get around to this job Hank?
I got some heat for mentioning it on the Vision Quest page, so I will let you (someone with a good reputation) take care of it. I'll be there over Thanksgiving if you need a hand. Once again, not trying to piss any one off...