Avalon- Poached Routes

Avalon
(Summer 2012)
Approach:
Park at the very top of Mt. Lemmon. Take control road passed the Lemmon Lookout trail turnoff. Go passed rusty corrugated steel building on right of control road. Go up a short rise in the road, nearing the top of the rise just before entering the pine trees there will be at trail on the left dropping down the ridge toward Rappel Rock (There may be a cairn or what is left of one). Follow this trail to the small ridge just behind Rappel Rock. There you will see a very distinct trail heading down to the right. Take this trail, the start of Avalon is the slab looking rock to your right.

Climbs: Need 60 meter rope for longest routes. Routes from East to West or facing wall, right to left.
1. Serf 5.Easy (Solo) Short black slabby section right of Fife.
2. Fife 5.Easy (B,A) Slab to chicken heads
3. Squire 5.Easy (B,A) Slab to higher chicken head finish.
4. Chastity 5.8 (B,G,A) Slab to horizontal weakness.
5. Lady of the lake 5.9 (B,A) Short steep face to slab to headwall.
6. Launcelot Deulake 5.9 (B,A) Short steep face to slab to headwall.
7. Forged with Ancient Mental 5.12?R (B,A) Slab to two spaced out old bolts to new bolts.
8. The Quest 5.10+ (B,C) Slab to head wall.
9. Project (Please stay off)
10. Project (Please stay off)
11. The Tourney Slot 5.10 (B,A) Slab to corner to black headwall.
12. Project (Bolted, no first two hangers- Please stay off)
13. Relic 5.9+ (B,G,sA) Several starts, two old bolts. Shares anchors left.
14. Little Miss treatment 5.9 (B,G,sA) Lieback to slab/face for 3 bolts (new-old-new).
15. Little Miss 5.8+ (B,G,A) Crescent flake (L to R) to headwall.
16. Camelot 5.10+ (B,G,A) Then slab to easy gear dihedral.
17. Maid Marian 5.9 (B,A) Easy slab to dihedral to two roofs.
18. The Holy Grail 5.11- (B,A) Thin slab to slabby headwall. Look for the Grail.
19. Green Knight 5.10- (B,A) Corner to short face to low angle.
20. Knights of the Round Table 5.10+ (B,G,A) Boulders to black bolts on right. Gear at top.
21. Sorcerer’s Apprentice 5.8 (B,A) Boulders to brown bolts on left.
22. Sir Mordede 5.7 (B,G,A) Left edge of cove left of 20 & 21.Two bolts to wide crack.
23. Gauen, Not so fearless 5.9 (B,G,A) Groove past cut trees to boulder then up through bolts.
24. Merlin’s Miracle 5.6 (B,A) Slight slab start, left to right angling bolts.
25. Sword and the Stone 5.9 (B,A) Bolt line left of Merlin’s easy climbing to .9 crux.
26. Black Knight 5.8 (G,A) Climbs corner/dihedral. I know, I need to clean foliage.

Notes:
B= Bolts G= Gear A= Anchor (Lowering carabineers or quicklinks) sA= Share Anchors

The five old bolts on Forged.., Relic and Little Miss Treatment are 20 plus years old. I have not fallen on them but they seem solid. After talking with other Tucson first ascentionists, they recommend replacing them, so I will be. It is not known who put the first three death defying routes up. In talking with other Tucson ascentionists, it was suggested, and recommended by some, that I protect Little Miss Treatment better. This is because of the potential of someone getting on it with the confidence inspired by the well protected new routes around it. I have added a bolt below and one of above the original single bolt that protected the route to protect the long and even longer ground falls.
Season is from when the upper section of the mountain opens in March/April to the end of November. Avalon and the far eastern end of the formation known as Dakota Territory are not list as part of the closure.
(At the left end of the Avalon is a trail that heads South to the West end of Rappel Rock. Follow this trail to large boulders, go under boulders to rap station that goes to West end of Rappel Rock. 7 minutes from ridge to rap station.)

David Stephens wrote:My money was on you EFR. ;-)

I am hurt (sad face icon). I really don't make a habit of snagging others routes unless they leave them for an extended period with a claim bolt. The only routes I did were there for like 7 years or more so that is hardly poaching a route.

I had a project at Enchanted tower in NM and had to drive 61/2 hours each way each weekend. It took me 4 or 5 weekends to get it.

Steven W. Johnson wrote:The person has been given my phone number to call me; it would be nice to be given a call as a courtesy. This is the end of the discussion for me. Thanks

Said person sent you an email a day or two ago Steve to set up a meet in person.

A few more questions and then I am done with questions, for now.

What if said poacher replaced old bolts on one of the old routes at Avalon.

What if Avalon isn't Avalon at all because whoever it was that did at least 3 routes before Steve got there named it. Should Steve have talked to those folks before he started drilling?

Maybe the folks that did the original 3 routes wanted to leave some stone for FA teams in the future and now Steve has come along and claimed the wall. There is a lot of gray in this matter. (gray matter) did anyone get that?

Which etower route was it, Eric if you don't mind sharing?

rap station to rap rock ? I remember a trivial 3rd class down through those boulders.
Am I just forgetting ?

1Eric Rhicard wrote:A few more questions and then I am done with questions, for now. What if said poacher replaced old bolts on one of the old routes at Avalon. What if Avalon isn't Avalon at all because whoever it was that did at least 3 routes before Steve got there named it. Should Steve have talked to those folks before he started drilling? Maybe the folks that did the original 3 routes wanted to leave some stone for FA teams in the future and now Steve has come along and claimed the wall. There is a lot of gray in this matter. (gray matter) did anyone get that?

I'm not from Arizona, so I can't claim to be an authoritative figure on the issue of ethics in the southwest, however, there is a drastic difference between putting a couple routes up and then not continuing development (it sounds like the old hardware is quite old) and showing up at a wall, seeing a cleaned section of wall with anchors and then finishing 'er off.

on a completely tangential note:
where is this overhanging sandstone pockets spot 300 miles from spokane? we talkin' 300 miles east or west...?

I'd be psyched if someone bolted a route I'd cleaned and marked bolt locations on, especially if they used good bolts. Less hard work and money spent! Get over it! You don't own the rock after all. Why do you really care that the routes got bolted without you doing the dirty work? Were those going to be crucial ego-boosting routes for your portfolio? Just go climb them and have fun!

chosspector wrote:I'd be psyched if someone bolted a route I'd cleaned and marked bolt locations on, especially if they used good bolts. Less hard work and money spent! Get over it! You don't own the rock after all. Why do you really care that the routes got bolted without you doing the dirty work? Were those going to be crucial ego-boosting routes for your portfolio? Just go climb them and have fun!

What you said is not quite true though. Figuring out where new lines will go is an art. It's not necessarily obvious. So while another FAist may save you some bolts, did he do the best line ? Did he put the bolts in the best places ? Did he ruin a route that would have been good if I had finished it ? Because once a route is established, God knows it can be big trouble if you cross it/do a variation/move a bolt. These are hardly earth-shattering questions, but it's worth acknowledging.

@PD... you'd be amazed at how much some folks want their adventure tamed these days !

Sorry for your route Steve.

Dave as for having 2 years on your project let me tell you about "pigpen" aka "bachar craker of the desert" aka "busdriver" by some locals. Mari Ginger and Maria Cranor noticed the crack, dug out the cave (fairly big cave to boot), Dave Evans removed a loose rock inside
the cave (where the kneebar rest is). Along comes up Mike Paul while everybody is resting (Mike is their bro BTW) Mike asks to give it a go
nobody gave it a second thought and he sends it onsight. Nobody is to hurt about it. Even now that they call it is aka "bachar cracker of the desert" Mike says Bachar was a bro and isn't hurt in the slightest. This is all in the new vogel or miramontes guidebook. paraphasing from memory.

Get over it

Paul Davidson wrote:rap station to rap rock ? I remember a trivial 3rd class down through those boulders. Am I just forgetting ?

I third-classed it before the anchor was in and while I wouldn't call it trivial, it wasn't too bad. There's some moves, but not much exposure. A lot of newer climbers or perhaps inexperienced followers seek out Rap Rock for an early multi-pitch experience, and maybe the thought was that some would balk at the downclimb. Of course, anyone who is nervous can always do the trail/braided erosion gully on the east side (which doesn't require any downclimbing) so the anchor certainly isn't necessary. The west descent is much nicer, though.

M Sprague wrote:Climb the routes and put them down as yours. The rest of the community should disregard ascents when stolen in that manner. You put the work in to finding, cleaning them and placing the anchors and were actively working on them. Unless you had a reputation of doing a bad job and somebody preemptively bolted, stealing like that is BS.

+1 more

Hey Steve,

Sorry for the late reply as I am on my honeymoon in Moab. Just saw this thread and I have not read through all of it yet, I only read your initial post and then skimmed a bit.

I helped put up these two routes. I did not see your topo indicating the routes had been worked, any tick/bolt marks, evidence of cleaning, nor did I mean any disrespect. I saw your anchor, and (incorrectly) thought that since you had not been there in a while you decided not to do them. I did see a route with some bolt hangers removed that was obviously a project, so I stayed off it.

I am glad my friend contacted you to work this out and am happy to go along with whatever you guys figured out. What happens to the routes, the bolts, the naming, etc really does not matter to me. I will touch base with you when I get back.

Best wishes,
Geir

PS- By the way, I also replaced the ancient hardware on one of the original routes there.

^ As so often, a misunderstanding. Something to remember before we make assumptions and create bad blood. It is good to see it clearing.

David Stephens wrote:My money was on you EFR. ;-) On my last trip, I found my route of 2 years(I know...I know 2 years!) all ticked up and the red tag was missing. I don't know how you feel about that; I'm just glad they did not leave the red tag on the anchors!! I'm still just one move away from that send and I will name it A Red Tagged Whore.

Colin Kenneth wrote: What is the statute of limitations on closed projects? If I came back to a crag several times over a year, and a route was continually "Closed," for no better reason than for the sake of it...I'd probably give climbing it a thought. That being said, I wouldn't immediately jump on something the first time I saw it, if it was a project. Really though, there comes a time when you should share your toys with others, and I think it falls well within two years.

jbak wrote: That would be a tough one ! It's definitely easier to give away (or get over the poach of) a line that is not that good to begin with. The test of FA enlightenment is to give away a great line.

mountainlion wrote: Get over it

2 years is a very long time and in my hometown it would not have lasted two weeks. I have given away the onsite FA on more than just one route, but once in awhile even a blind pig would like to eat his acorn.

back on track: I've that found routes that have been skipped over the years by other stronger climbers to be not worth the bolts most of the time. I've done a few no star routes and you'll be glad when you turn other climbers away from them. I have also left routes abandoned/cleaned that are now routes, some of them are very good, some not so good. If you did your job cleaning it and they did there's bolting it, I'd climb it and just hope like hell it's a piece of shit!

...See ya bolting the leftovers at the Homestead!

Allow me to reluctantly weigh in here. It seems that maybe we’re all missing an important point. First, these situations are complex and there is no absolute set of ethics that govern this silly pursuit of ours. Secondly, I am at a loss to accurately interpret my own complex motives for putting up routes, let alone those of others, and understanding our precise motivation for doing what we do is unimportant. What I really think is important here, and apparently wasn’t done, is the issue of communicating with each other. If the people who want to bolt a new line would at least communicate their wishes with the active parties in the area, most of the climbers I know would be easily able to work out a solution that would satisfy all concerned. Anyhow, these are my thoughts for what little they are worth.

JoeS wrote:Allow me to reluctantly weigh in here. It seems that maybe we’re all missing an important point. First, these situations are complex and there is no absolute set of ethics that govern this silly pursuit of ours. Secondly, I am at a loss to accurately interpret my own complex motives for putting up routes, let alone those of others, and understanding our precise motivation for doing what we do is unimportant. What I really think is important here, and apparently wasn’t done, is the issue of communicating with each other. If the people who want to bolt a new line would at least communicate their wishes with the active parties in the area, most of the climbers I know would be easily able to work out a solution that would satisfy all concerned. Anyhow, these are my thoughts for what little they are worth.

Well said.

JMo wrote:Which etower route was it, Eric if you don't mind sharing?

Goliath. I think it is one of the most stunning lines in the SW. I love aretes and decided to climb it the first day I saw it.

frankstoneline wrote: I'm not from Arizona, so I can't claim to be an authoritative figure on the issue of ethics in the southwest, however, there is a drastic difference between putting a couple routes up and then not continuing development (it sounds like the old hardware is quite old) and showing up at a wall, seeing a cleaned section of wall with anchors and then finishing 'er off.

The guys that did these routes did not show up and see a cleaned section of wall and in fact did a fair amount of brushing on them according to the the one who did the brushing.

"there is a drastic difference between putting a couple routes up and then not continuing development..."

I just think it is interesting that you and possibly others think Steve has a right to a crag and all the route possibilities when he was not even the first to discovered it.

Mine mine mine. How about ours ours ours.

I told Steve in a text he was welcome to join us at a new crag we are developing and if he wants he can lead the new one I cleaned and bolted. There are 6-10 new routes to do at this spot and they will be 5.8-5.11 and some are 100 feet long.

Hell anyone who wants to cover their share of the hardware costs is welcome to join us.

By the way have any of you above average geniuses figured out who besides Geir was involved? You can just respond with a yes.

1Eric Rhicard wrote: Goliath. I think it is one of the most stunning lines in the SW. I love aretes and decided to climb it the first day I saw it.

+1, makes me happy to just think about, tho probably not for me in this lifetime