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Avalon- Poached Routes

Mike Lane · · AnCapistan · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 880

Everyone who develops sport routes knows the hardest part is almost always getting the anchors in. Cleaning may supercede that, but if that takes up too much effort I'll call it choss and leave it for others. Jumping on some brand new anchors and zooking in a line is not technically forbidden in our stupid world of made-up 'rules', but it is definitely douchy. A gray area of thinking the anchors were abandoned may apply, so it comes down to what knowledge of the area the offender has.

A case of mistaken identity

jackmeoff · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 0

Hi, my name is jack. I bolted those routes. sorry steve if they were yours but how the hell was i supposed to know? i don't come to this site because it's full of dickheads and it looks like i was right. i was talking about these lines to a friend and how the seem abandoned and he pointed me to this thread. never looked at this shit until now and just signed up for an account. as far as i know it's not private property and its a free country so early bird gets the worm, sorry.

Glenn Schuler · · Monument, Co. · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 1,330
jackmeoff wrote:Hi, my name is jack. I bolted those routes. sorry steve if they were yours but how the hell was i supposed to know? i don't come to this site because it's full of dickheads and it looks like i was right. i was talking about these lines to a friend and how the seem abandoned and he pointed me to this thread. never looked at this shit until now and just signed up for an account. as far as i know it's not private property and its a free country so early bird gets the worm, sorry.
Priceless. Rhoads should be here any minute in your defense.
J. Albers · · Colorado · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 1,926
jackmeoff wrote:Hi, my name is jack. I bolted those routes. sorry steve if they were yours but how the hell was i supposed to know? i don't come to this site because it's full of dickheads and it looks like i was right. i was talking about these lines to a friend and how the seem abandoned and he pointed me to this thread. never looked at this shit until now and just signed up for an account. as far as i know it's not private property and its a free country so early bird gets the worm, sorry.
Why end your statement with "sorry" when its obvious that you are not. And as far as your comment regarding this website being full of "dickheads"....well, the only post so far on this thread that could be construed as having been written by a jerk is yours. I'm glad your not part of my local community. Sheesh.
David Stephens · · Superior AZ/Spokane WA · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 987

My money was on you EFR. ;-)

I have been driving 300 miles each way working a new route. This route is sick, it overhangs 30ft in 80 ft of sandstone pockets, it could be one of the best routes I have ever bolted! This crag is only 3 years old and has 15 routes by 3 other climbers "all innocent" they say. On my last trip, I found my route of 2 years(I know...I know 2 years!) all ticked up and the red tag was missing. I don't know how you feel about that; I'm just glad they did not leave the red tag on the anchors!!

I'm still just one move away from that send and I will name it A Red Tagged Whore.

Brigette Beasley · · Monroe, WA · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 275
jackmeoff wrote:Hi, my name is jack. I bolted those routes. sorry steve if they were yours but how the hell was i supposed to know? i don't come to this site because it's full of dickheads and it looks like i was right. i was talking about these lines to a friend and how the seem abandoned and he pointed me to this thread. never looked at this shit until now and just signed up for an account. as far as i know it's not private property and its a free country so early bird gets the worm, sorry.
Troll?
Ed Wright · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2006 · Points: 285

If you had already put in the anchors and cleaned the rock and marked where the bolts should go, why didn't you go ahead and place the bolts??

Red · · Tacoma, Toyota · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 1,625
Brigette wrote: Troll?
Most likely.
Red · · Tacoma, Toyota · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 1,625

"This route is sick, it overhangs 30ft in 80 ft of sandstone pockets, it could be one of the best routes I have ever bolted!
...I will name it A Red Tagged Whore."

Sounds like a good one! Send me a pic Dave!

Alex McIntyre · · Tucson, AZ · Joined Jan 2011 · Points: 546
Brigette wrote: Troll?
Is that even a question?
Colin Kenneth · · Fort Collins, co · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 280

Way to let something trivial ruin your day.

It sucks to put a lot of work into something an not be recognized for it. But honestly, are you doing the work as an act of generosity and to benefit CLIMBING, as a sport, and a fairly democratic one at that...or were you simply doing it to put your name on it, and for your own gratuity?

I'd wager it's the former, so take 10 more seconds to shake your fist at the heavens, then take as many deep breaths and let's just climb for the love of it.

Thanks for all of your hard work, including cleaning these two particular routes.

Colin Kenneth · · Fort Collins, co · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 280
David Stephens wrote: On my last trip, I found my route of 2 years(I know...I know 2 years!) all ticked up and the red tag was missing. I don't know how you feel about that;
What is the statute of limitations on closed projects? If I came back to a crag several times over a year, and a route was continually "Closed," for no better reason than for the sake of it...I'd probably give climbing it a thought.

That being said, I wouldn't immediately jump on something the first time I saw it, if it was a project.

Really though, there comes a time when you should share your toys with others, and I think it falls well within two years.
jbak x · · tucson, az · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 4,626
David Stephens wrote:I have been driving 300 miles each way working a new route. This route is sick, it overhangs 30ft in 80 ft of sandstone pockets, it could be one of the best routes I have ever bolted! This crag is only 3 years old and has 15 routes by 3 other climbers "all innocent" they say. On my last trip, I found my route of 2 years(I know...I know 2 years!) all ticked up and the red tag was missing.
That would be a tough one !

It's definitely easier to give away (or get over the poach of) a line that is not that good to begin with. The test of FA enlightenment is to give away a great line.
Steven W. Johnson · · Tucson, Arizona · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 0

Thanks for the understanding, support and the discussion on ethics and community partnership. I have been informed of who the person is that made a disheartening decision. The sad part is saw me many weeks over the summer going into Avalon. Also, they knew prior to and after their actions that I was working on the routes. We discussed my dilemma of how to protect and not over bolt one routes crux. I have run into the individual at least twice with no mention by them of bolting the routes, but that they had been to Avalon a number of times; which, I took as a complement to the area. The main reason I haven't been back in the past weeks was because my drill battery was being rebuilt. My main hope is to have the person understand that it is simple courtesy to talk to people before they act. Climbing and climbing communities are based on partnership. Even a soloist partners with the community because they normally solo established routes. This for me is a community partnership issue with courtesy being one cornerstone of the community. Honestly, a person or party should not have to go through all sorts of effort to be given the courtesy of completing a route. I have never established a route in a new area without talking to the main developers; I would probably try to talk to them if it was an old area, like I have with Avalon. My history of route setting in putting up areas, I haven't felt the need to infill. Courtesy and respect are the hallmarks of any society and community. The person has been given my phone number to call me; it would be nice to be given a call as a courtesy. This is the end of the discussion for me. Thanks

jbak x · · tucson, az · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 4,626

Maybe he was out of bolts...or daylight...or battery juice.

M Sprague · · New England · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 5,090

err, maybe this "..because my drill battery was being rebuilt". It can be a multitude of reasons though: ran out of power, sharp bit, bolts and hangers, Audubon president walks up and you don't want to drill in front of him, loaned your drill to a buddy for a weekend and they forgot to get it back, etc., or maybe just want to wait and have friends confirm the placements.

M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911

fukin AZ is worse than CT with this shit! stolen pads, chopped bolts, traddies vs sportos vs boulderers vs douches, its like an REI/gym parking lot on the front range!

J Q · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 50
M Sprague wrote:err, maybe this "..because my drill battery was being rebuilt". It can be a multitude of reasons though: ran out of power, sharp bit, bolts and hangers, Audubon president walks up and you don't want to drill in front of him, loaned your drill to a buddy for a weekend and they forgot to get it back, etc., or maybe just want to wait and have friends confirm the placements.
This concept of ownership fascinates me. One time my shoulder was being rebuilt because it was torn up pretty badly while bouldering. However, the week before I had come up with the idea to bolt a route and had even top-roped said route once while ticking possible bolt placements and cleaning it. Does that make the route mine? The only real difference was the non presence of chains but that was because it was so easy to build an anchor at the top that I didn't bother on that day.

I ask because I did, and it was stolen, but I never thought to make something out of it. I figured that I was the one who tore his shoulder, I didn't put the bolts in yet, and that I would just be plain selfish to make everyone wait for my shoulder to heal before the route got put up.

I know it's a little different, but, you know, ethics are a bitch. I could re-name this route, everyone knows who actually discovered it and cleaned it, but I never named it. Should I name it now?
M Sprague · · New England · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 5,090

It is more an issue of courtesy, Jon, than outright ownership. In your example, by not getting to putting the anchors in yet, it was probably a lot less obvious to others that you were actively working on it, so somebody snaking it could be unintentional. By going through the point of actually starting to put the bolts in, most would recognize that somebody has made some commitment to the route, at least enough to warrant finding out the deal before jumping on it with a drill.

Jonas Salk · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2008 · Points: 10

So where is Avalon located? I'd love to go check it out now that it's all developed! : )

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Arizona & New Mexico
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