Tying into rope through carabiner

Here is the story of a failure that happened from your setup:
ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=12588657

Couldn't quickly find the MP thread. If I recall correctly, the carabiner failed because the gate was torqued and it went around the key lock catch and opened outwards. The kid fell from near the top, but was slowed down by trees and lived.

There is a decent chance the gate was not locked(although the rope could theoretically unlock it as well), but it still demonstrates the dangers of climbing off of a single carabiner that can cross load.

I would probably not climb with someone that climbed like that if they did not have a good reason to do so (and saving tie in time seems pretty lazy to me unless you are trying to set a record for pitches in a day or something). If they insisted on doing it, I wouldn't belay them unless they used two biners. With two the chance of failure seems remote and it is fairly safe... but why add another component to the system that can fail?

There is a shock load directly on the biner when the belay loop is pulled taught.

First rule of holes- when you realize you're in one, stop digging. So stop saying any more about shock loading, as you are operating under a WAY mistaken understanding of the term as it applies to forces on climbing gear and systems.

Or it gets loaded on the nose and can Fail under body weight and you die.

The knot should be tight before you climb. Tell me. How much line pulls through the knot? Tell me how this provides any dynamic properties to this system that would not be negated by harness and body deformity, rope stretch, rope slip through belay device, belayer movement.

Huh.

csproul wrote: Not entirely true. Most all rope soloist using the Soloist tie in with cord through the tie-in points. If using the the Silent Partner, the directions recommend two locking carabiners through the tie-in points and explicitly say not to use the belay loop. I may occasionally tie back-up loops that I clip into the belay loop, but it is never my primary attachment while rope-soling. Never used a Grigri, so I can't comment on that.

I use the clove hitch on a single carabiner as directed by the climbing self rescue instructional book(mountaineers out door expert series, by Andy Tyson and Molly Loomis). There is also an artical in the climbing magazine #303 about short-fixing and it suggests using a simple clove hitch system. I'm still going with the single steel locking carabiner.

Ah. The shock load discussions. My favorite. Forces in climbing and car accidents are a matter of "time". Acceleration and deceleration are about time to absorb or dissipate energy. When using a dynamic rope the time to decelerate is relatively slow. We are talking about fractions of a second making a huge differenc. So shock loading the biner.... No.

In response to Dan B above. We rely on single pieces of gear all the time when potential loads are greatest such as the belay loop, single locker, single belay device, single rope, single nut, with single biner with regard to leads falls.

To answer the op. Lead falls can push 7kN or higher in certain situation. The minor axis of most biners are only 6 to 10kN. So you may be dangerously close to their limit as mentioned by many above. So buy a super burly biner or use two with at least one locker.

Gunkiemike wrote: There is a shock load directly on the biner when the belay loop is pulled taught.

Which is absolutely negated by the dynamic proprieties of the climbing rope at the other end of the same carabiner, right?

jumping fish wrote: I use the clove hitch on a single carabiner as directed by the climbing self rescue instructional book(mountaineers out door expert series, by Andy Tyson and Molly Loomis). There is also an artical in the climbing magazine #303 about short-fixing and it suggests using a simple clove hitch system. I'm still going with the single steel locking carabiner.

Rope soloing under a self-recue situation is an entirely different animal. I'd prob be ok with a clove on a single biner in that situation, although even then I'd likely back it up with a bight clipped back to my harness. If I were planing on doing a good amount of short fixing, I'd prob use a grigri and then it'd have to be clipped by a single locking biner. I'd prob use something that was auto-locking to help prevent accidental unlocking and still back it up to another loop. I've done a fair amount of rope-soloing and I can tell you for sure that using a clove sucks compared to using a device intended for soloing. You may disagree, but your assertion that:

jumping fish wrote:All rope soloers/self rescue gurus are attaching themselves via carabiners direct to belay loop.

just isn't quite true. In fact, the majority of rope soloist I have ever met were not attached by a single (to be fair, I guess you didn't say single) locking carabiner to the belay loop. The exceptions being a few aid climbers using a Grigri, and most of them were tying a backup knot of some kind.

wait for it

your gonna die! ha ha

lots of bad info on this thread

for real actual info go here ... theuiaa.org/upload_area/fil…

IMO

1. use 2 opposed biners, preferably with at least one a locker if not both

2. dont worry about all this fancy loading ... theres already biners in the system ... at the belay end, the pro, and so what if they are at the climber end ... if you have 2 biners youll be fine ...

3. safety wise itll be perfectly fine with 2 biners ... but its not "best practice" as when leading its more bulky and easier to screw up yr clips IMO ...

Larry S wrote:If you absolutely must do this with a biner, you can make it a bit safer by taking a few seconds to thread it thru both tie-in points that way it can't get cross loaded. There's a gym near me in philadelphia which doesn't trust people to tie in for some reason - the knot's already tied and you have to clip in this way using two locking caribiners.

If I am interpreting that correctly, you are telling him to tri-axially load the single carabiner through both tie-in points?

If that is the case, then I am not sure that tri-axially loading is less dangerous than cross-loading.

Khoi wrote: If I am interpreting that correctly, you are telling him to tri-axially load the single carabiner through both tie-in points? If that is the case, then I am not sure that tri-axially loading is less dangerous than cross-loading.

Considering the waist belt tie in would take the majority of the load, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Its like the silly argument that clipping your belay device to your tie in points is dangerous.

Thanks for the help guys! After filtering through the (expected) negativity and bashing, I came to the conclusion that I will start tying in directly to the harness from now on. The possibility of the biner cross-loading, especially during a lead fall (so yes, I was leading on this :X), didn't occur to me, and makes sense that if you were to attach a biner, you would want at least 2. Just KISS

Khoi wrote: If I am interpreting that correctly, you are telling him to tri-axially load the single carabiner through both tie-in points? If that is the case, then I am not sure that tri-axially loading is less dangerous than cross-loading.

Tri-axial loading in this situation is pretty much non-existent just like it is when clipping your belay device through your tei-in points. Unless your leg loops are a long way from your waist (I geuss if you were really tall?) then they pretty much end up at the same place when you weight them. Try it...clip a locking biner through you tie-in points and weight it. The waist and leg loops end up at one end of the biner and whatever your hanging from end up at the other, pretty much pulling form two directions. Even if the biner got turned sideways, I'd bet that the same thing would happen. Still....just tie into the damn rope!

Edward Pyune wrote:Thanks for the help guys! After filtering through the (expected) negativity and bashing, I came to the conclusion that I will start tying in directly to the harness from now on. The possibility of the biner cross-loading, especially during a lead fall (so yes, I was leading on this :X), didn't occur to me, and makes sense that if you were to attach a biner, you would want at least 2. Just KISS

Edward, help me out; I'm missing something here. If you were leading with this setup, presumably you would need to untie the 8-on-a-bight between leads to pull the rope, right? How is this any faster than tying in directly to your harness?

Personally I can tie into the rope through the legs and waist so fast that it really is not an inconvenience, even if sporting......

Really you are that lazy?????

kBobby wrote: Edward, help me out; I'm missing something here. If you were leading with this setup, presumably you would need to untie the 8-on-a-bight between leads to pull the rope, right? How is this any faster than tying in directly to your harness?

We usually had 1 person lead and the others would top rope. Once the leader reaches the top, he makes a top rope anchor with 2 opposite + opposed lockers at the master point to clip the rope through. The belayer then lowers him and the leader unclips and hands someone else the rope to clip into. The time saving wasn't really the appeal, as the convenience of just unclipping and giving someone the biner to clip into and start going.

You have just wasted all of the time you "saved" by tying into a carabiner by creating this thread. you're going to cross-load that sucker one day and fall to your death. Just tie in.

This thread needs a serious pussy

Hello Kitty

Princess Mia wrote:Personally I can tie into the rope through the legs and waist so fast that it really is not an inconvenience, even if sporting...... Really you are that lazy?????

+1

If there is a God she will nuke this entire thread immediately.