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Training for dyno when pumped

Original Post
juancho · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2008 · Points: 0

I'm working on a boulder problem. Starts with a couple campus moves, then traverses, then finishes with a dyno. By the time I get to the dyno my arms are shot.  WHat do you recommend. Weighted pull-ups? Some kind of speed-power workout? How do you get max power, when you're already cooked? Thanks

TheBirdman Friedman · · Eldorado Springs, Colorado · Joined Jan 2010 · Points: 65

Weighted explosive pull-ups. Ideally, you'd be doing 4 x 4's but without access to a gym, that will be tough. Try a 10-20 lb. weight vest and instead of doing slow, smooth, and steady pull ups, try to really yard on the bar and explode upwards. Do intervals. 30 seconds on, 30 seconds off, as many as you can do.

Rajiv Ayyangar · · San Francisco, CA · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 220

1) How hard is the problem?
2) What's the limiting factor? your arms or your fingers? Put it another way, if it were all jugs, could you then do the huck?
3) Is there any alternate beta that would allow you to climb with fewer moves, more weight on your feet, fewer feet-free moves, or find a rest somewhere?

PTZ · · Chicago/Colorado · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 490

I've found that hard boulder problems, happen right when they are supposed to. That is when your mind and body combine to not fall off that tall-ass breaking boulder.
You are probably strong enough right now, you just need the right feet, temps,freshness and attitude. Having chicks watch you helps too. Then you want to be a real man and send.
Rock on.

Dustin Drake · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 5

Try doing heavy finger rolls with a full wrist curl to pre-fatigue your forearms. Look at doing something like 5 sets of 10 reps with the heaviest weight you can handle at that range.

Then do explosive pull ups, body weight only. Really focus on accelerating your entire body up through bar. Try to only hold the bar with your fingers rather than fully grasping the bar with your entire hand and thumb.

AndyMac · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 1,123

Want it! You obviously do, but I'm sure when you get to the move there's that doubt that creeps into your head. Stomp that shit! Turn off the doubt and try 110%, fully commit, train yourself to not back off even though your arms are shot and your fingers are opening. The physical will come but the mental just needs to be fully utilized.

Chas Waterman · · Prescott, AZ · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 40

Agree with Andymac... stomp that shit! also, stop lifting weights, just do more pull ups and watch bouldering movies on the internet when you can't lift your arms anymore.

Aerili · · Los Alamos, NM · Joined Mar 2007 · Points: 1,875
TheBirdman wrote:30 seconds on, 30 seconds off, as many as you can do.
As many as you can do? That is a great recipe for getting injured.

You should complete your power workout well before you feel that level of fatigue. It is about quality, not quantity, and you will see better results this way.
TheBirdman Friedman · · Eldorado Springs, Colorado · Joined Jan 2010 · Points: 65
Aerili wrote: As many as you can do? That is a great recipe for getting injured. You should complete your power workout well before you feel that level of fatigue. It is about quality, not quantity, and you will see better results this way.
As many as you can do in 30 second sets. Not as many as you can do endlessly. Besides, your power will fail (and thus you would be unable to do any more repetitions) long before you reach the point of injury. I'm assuming he's not using the shallow two-fingered pockets on a hangboard, but is hanging off a normal bar.
Aerili · · Los Alamos, NM · Joined Mar 2007 · Points: 1,875
TheBirdman wrote: Besides, your power will fail (and thus you would be unable to do any more repetitions) long before you reach the point of injury.
Not true at all. But thanks for clarifying what you really meant in terms of "how many".
Rajiv Ayyangar · · San Francisco, CA · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 220
juancho wrote:Thanks for the replies. I’m not sure how hard it is yet, but suffice to say I’m at my limit. The limiting factor is definitely my arms. The holds are all pretty decent. A smoother sequence may come together, and I agree with PTZ’s comments (chicks – the ultimate motivator!) but since I can’t get up there for at least another week, I'm trying to think of ways to simulate the problem in the weight room. Again, thanks, and I’d love to hear more ideas.
What's your limit? We need more information. If the holds are all pretty decent, then why can't you get more feet? High toes and heel hooks tend to work on good rails. Very few problems actually force a campusing sequence... unless they're set in a gym.
TheBirdman Friedman · · Eldorado Springs, Colorado · Joined Jan 2010 · Points: 65
Aerili wrote: Not true at all. But thanks for clarifying what you really meant in terms of "how many".
Really? I was under the impression pull-ups, even explosive ones (especially on a static bar as opposed to dynamic rings) were an extremely safe exercise in terms of exposing yourself to injury. Obviously, you can over-do it; you can over-do anything. But I've popped tendons on a hangboard on my first rep of the first set from trying holds that were too small. I can't say I've ever felt even close to injuring myself from pull-ups before fatigue set in and I was physically unable to do anymore. I have done reps of pull-ups to failure and like I said, I always fail due to fatigue and have never felt close to injury.

I analogize it to push-ups. My ability to do the push-ups fails long before I'm anywhere close to injuring the muscles involved in the exercise. I know you are coming from a physiology/kinesiology background so I'm interested to hear why you think such an exercise would expose you to injury. I just always thought of it as Power Endurance Training on a bar.

That being said, I do agree that you'll reap the greatest benefits in terms of power training by doing it when fresh and the quality matters much more than quantity. But as the OP said, he's trying a dyno at the end of the problem, thus he's attempting the move when he's already fatigued. To more accurately simulate the climbing goal, I'm of the opinion he should be training the movement when already fatigued since that is the situation he is going to encounter on the problem.
Aerili · · Los Alamos, NM · Joined Mar 2007 · Points: 1,875
TheBirdman wrote: Really? I was under the impression pull-ups, even explosive ones (especially on a static bar as opposed to dynamic rings) were an extremely safe exercise in terms of exposing yourself to injury.
Doing a movement repetitively, especially when it's explosive, is a good way to get injured because you are loading your soft tissues rapidly under moderately high forces and high accelerations in the same manner over and over. Tissues do suffer creep (deformation from stress), like any material, and when the mechanical stress applied to them becomes too high (without enough recovery to allow tissue restoration), you get injured. Thus, why you should limit the volume you perform such exercises. i.e. it doesn't mean you shouldn't do them, but it is the reason why you should not push to the bitter end.

Birdman wrote:That being said, I do agree that you'll reap the greatest benefits in terms of power training by doing it when fresh and the quality matters much more than quantity. But as the OP said, he's trying a dyno at the end of the problem, thus he's attempting the move when he's already fatigued. To more accurately simulate the climbing goal, I'm of the opinion he should be training the movement when already fatigued since that is the situation he is going to encounter on the problem.
Yeah....now that I've thought about it, I don't think I agree with your theory. Training power while really fatigued is just a bad idea, even if those are the conditions under which he is doing the movement. He should still train power while fresh and stop before highly fatigued. Eventually, this should elicit enough gains in his recruitment that he will be less fatigued and more efficient during his actual performance later.

I don't know of any strength coaches who ensure their athletes are in a fatigued state before doing power workouts, regardless of playing conditions. Power workouts always come first and end while the athlete is still fairly fresh.

However, it is possible that the poster needs to work on pure strength first before he can implement an effective power program. Without a foundation of strength, training power isn't as useful or recommended.

Lastly, I forgot to mention that your suggestion of 1:1 rest-to-activity is totally off. Power training requires a much higher ratio of rest to activity time.... more like 3:1 (just to be general). Therefore, in your scenario, you should be resting 90 seconds, not 30. If this feels like too much rest, then your strength foundation is probably pretty good and you should add some more weight to your exercise. Otherwise, you're just not going to elicit the recruitment you think you are getting.

Oh yeah, I am confused about the OP's statement that his arms are too flamed to complete the move. There are a lot of muscles in the arm and several joints....exactly what muscles/part of the arm are we talking about? I really have no idea based on what he wrote.
Monomaniac · · Morrison, CO · Joined Oct 2006 · Points: 17,295

Aerili,

As usual you are right on the mark. However I think you were (under) exagerating a bit with this:

Aerili wrote: Lastly, I forgot to mention that your suggestion of 1:1 rest-to-activity is totally off. Power training requires a much higher ratio of rest to activity time.... more like 3:1 (just to be general). Therefore, in your scenario, you should be resting 90 seconds, not 30. If this feels like too much rest, then your strength foundation is probably pretty good and you should add some more weight to your exercise. Otherwise, you're just not going to elicit the recruitment you think you are getting.
For TRUE power training, rest to work ratios should be MUCH higher, like on the order of 10 or 20 to 1. That may sound like a lot but it really isn't for a true "power" exercise which should be relatively short in duration by definition (say, less than 10 seconds).

For example, a typical campus set takes 5-10 seconds. At a relatively minimal 2 minute rest interval that's a ratio of somewhere between 12:1 and 24:1.

Of course, you did say "just to be general" :) And the exercise in question is not "power", so a 3:1 ratio may be adequate for this exercise, as long as we don't try to pretend its a power workout.
Aerili · · Los Alamos, NM · Joined Mar 2007 · Points: 1,875
Monomaniac wrote:Aerili, As usual you are right on the mark. However I think you were (under) exagerating a bit with this: For TRUE power training, rest to work ratios should be MUCH higher, like on the order of 10 or 20 to 1. That may sound like a lot but it really isn't for a true "power" exercise which should be relatively short in duration by definition (say, less than 10 seconds).
It is probably true I occasionally type numbers mindlessly. But only occasionally. lol

I consider power exercises to be able to last up to 30 seconds. Even at 15-30 s durations, one can exert 75-90% maximum power. I went back to my books to refresh my memory and try to find out if there is an empirically recommended ratio-- and you are pretty close.

For exercises lasting 5-10 s (90-100% max power output), exercise-to-rest ratios are 1:12 - 1:20. For exercises lasting 15-30 s, ratios are 1:3 - 1:5. (I knew those 3's and 1's were floating around in my head for some reason...see, it was not as mindless as you imagine.)

Monomaniac wrote:And the exercise in question is not "power", so a 3:1 ratio may be adequate for this exercise, as long as we don't try to pretend its a power workout.
I agree that pull-ups of any kind are difficult to make into a plyometric exercise because it is not conducive to a stretch-shortening cycle in the tendons in such movements. Most explosive upper body training involves throwing and pushing motions. However, I do believe creating a pull-up as explosively as possible can still contribute toward power development to some degree since power is about speed, after all.

I have a feeling gymnasts, especially male gymnasts, are one of the few athletes who perform explosive upper body pulling motions.

And although climbers seem to be in love with "power" training, the reality is that climbing is still mostly "slow".

juancho wrote:I know next to nothing about physiology, but it’s the big muscles you use to crank an all-points-off dyno on overhanging rock.
Even using descriptors like "forearms", "shoulders", "biceps [upper arms]", "all of the above" would be more precise.

By the way, power training refers to the amount of weight (force) you move for a given speed (therefore distance per time matters).

Oh yeah, you made me think of the dude who had a talent for dyno'ing in Front Range Freaks. Check it out if you can. ;)
Rajiv Ayyangar · · San Francisco, CA · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 220
Aerili wrote:I have a feeling gymnasts, especially male gymnasts, are one of the few athletes who perform explosive upper body pulling motions. And although climbers seem to be in love with "power" training, the reality is that climbing is still mostly "slow".
Ever watched hard bouldering? (or a fast climber like Sean Mccoll, Adam Ondra?).
Monomaniac · · Morrison, CO · Joined Oct 2006 · Points: 17,295
Aerili wrote: I agree that pull-ups of any kind are difficult to make into a plyometric exercise because it is not conducive to a stretch-shortening cycle in the tendons in such movements. Most explosive upper body training involves throwing and pushing motions. However, I do believe creating a pull-up as explosively as possible can still contribute toward power development to some degree since power is about speed, after all.
I think a pullup could be used as a "power" exercise, but not with a set duration of 30 seconds (assuming this means 30 seconds of more or less constant contraction). At the most I could see up to 3 reps. Beyond that I would not consider the exercise to be "power". That was my point in saying the described activity does not meet my definition of "power" training.
Aerili · · Los Alamos, NM · Joined Mar 2007 · Points: 1,875
Monomaniac wrote: I think a pullup could be used as a "power" exercise, but not with a set duration of 30 seconds (assuming this means 30 seconds of more or less constant contraction). At the most I could see up to 3 reps. Beyond that I would not consider the exercise to be "power". That was my point in saying the described activity does not meet my definition of "power" training.
Yeah I understand and would generally agree that a pull-up set of 30 sec duration is not going to develop explosive power or max recruitment. (If that is what one so desires.)

Rajiv Ayyangar wrote:Ever watched hard bouldering? (or a fast climber like Sean Mccoll, Adam Ondra?).
I'm not saying that hard bouldering doesn't require power or that power training isn't useful in such endeavors. But that doesn't disprove my statement that, regardless, the majority of climbing is "slow".
slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103

to the OP - if you skip the start, are you able to hit the dyno? i'm surprised nobody has asked this yet. if you can't hit it while you are totally fresh, that is where you need to start. then work backwards - link the last 2 moves into the dyno, then the last 4 moves or so, etc.

Howrad McGreehan · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2012 · Points: 0

Do you have a rock gym nearby, juancho?

There's a hundred-million ways to train for rock climbing, and it's hard to tell what works, and what doesn't; it's a very specific sport, as we all know.

As far as dyno training goes, I have close friends at the local gym, and we all kind of climb together. Most of us are boulderers and we like to fool around. At times we may decide it's DYNO TIME! And we proceed to screw around and jump to holds. It's normally to something juggy, but working hard climbing, then messing around on some dynos is a blast.

I've just re-read the first post which you said you don't have access to a climbing gym. Certainly makes things a bit trickier... At that point, your best bet is probably to keep training the way you are. Keep things light enough to do lots of reps. Lean muscle is the goal. Do push-ups, use a barbell. Get super ridiculously pumped and think about climbing.

Core exercises are going to help a lot, as it sounds like this is a rather overhung problem, with few feet. My sister always does what she calls "5 minutes of pain", which is just a 5 minute long, no rest, core workout. It's actually quite hard, and it can be changed to suit your needs, lengthened with more kinds of movements, etc. The base of it is this:

Minute 1: Push-ups
Minute 2: Push-up position
Minute 3: Drop to Plank
Minute 4 + 5: Rotating side-planks (30 seconds, the swap sides).

As you can see, it's very open-ended. Can add more time for sit-ups, more Push-ups, whatever.

The goal is to do it non-stop, which is much more difficult than it sounds (for myself, anyway!) If you stop, that's fine, but start going again; at least finish!

I know this isn't "DYNO POW3R", but I think helps all together. Good luck, and crush that dyno!

slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103

working hard climbing, then messing around on wild dynos sounds like a great way to see a PT once a week for a few months.

also agree w/ mike mckinnon. light isn't right. at least not in this case.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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