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Rappel accident - LCC, Utah

cdec · · SLC, UT · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 654
rging wrote: You would use an auto block not a prusik
Any properly tied friction hitch works. It is personal preference.

Get well.
nbrown · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 7,718
rging wrote: Nope
Depends... on whether or not there is a knot, and which side of the "rings" it's on in relation to the one who loses controll -assuming it jams in the anchor.
M Sprague · · New England · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 5,090
rging wrote: Nope
Explain. I don't see how being tethered together helps anything. Assuming for simplicity sake you are not relying on the chance the joining knot is on the lucky side and catches, if one person lets go of their rope, the physics would be the same as if both climbers were on one side, no? I would suggest you set up a model with low friction string and see what happens.

This shows why Keep it Simple is so important, particularly when tired. There is less chance a basic physics error will kill you dead.
pfwein Weinberg · · Boulder, CO · Joined May 2006 · Points: 71
rging wrote: Nope
Yep, as I understand it.
The point of "tethering" is that if one climber reaches a belay and accidentally disconnects from the rappel before the other climber is secure, the other climber will still be "safe" (fall will be arrested by the tether). I never used the "tether."

Like a lot of recreational climbers, I've dome simul rapelling, but eventually came to the conclusion that the risks outweigh the benefits, for me. The calculation may be different when doing lots of rappels or for "professional" types who may have their shit absolutely dialed in. I think it's one of those things where there is no absolute right or wrong; we've all got to figure out what our personal best practice is, in this case in conjunction with our partner.
M Sprague · · New England · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 5,090

Of course you would probably die and the anchor pull from the static shock load of the high fall factor.
Calculate the force of a 100k person taking a fall factor 2 on a 3m static tether.

force calculator

Tim Stich · · Colorado Springs, Colorado · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 1,520

A better way to rappel with a noob is to rig their device first at the anchor and then rig your own device after them. You rap first and then give them the fireman belay when they go. Unless they undo their device there is no way they can completely screw it up.

pfwein Weinberg · · Boulder, CO · Joined May 2006 · Points: 71
M Sprague wrote:Of course you would probably die and the anchor pull from the static shock load of the high fall factor. Calculate the force of a 100k person taking a fall factor 2 on a 3m static tether. force calculator
I agree, that's why I didn't do the tether--seemed like a "backup" that would give a false sense of security, and is a pain to implement and creates kind of a cluster. Simulrapping seemed like something that if perhaps you do it all the time, with a partner who does it all the time, it may be safer then if you just do it now and then. Since I wasn't dong it all the time, I pulled the plug.
rging · · Salt Lake City, Ut · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 210
pfwein wrote: The point of "tethering" is that if one climber reaches a belay and accidentally disconnects from the rappel before the other climber is secure, the other climber will still be "safe" (fall will be arrested by the tether).
Wow did I not finish my earlier thought. A tether would only be used if one person was tied in and the other was using the rappel device in a counter balance situation. So if you are in a hurry you can tie in on one end, the other person set up to rap on the other side and the tether merely keeps you together in case of weight differential. More practical for injury, rescue. The only way I would do a simul is with a firemans, except the time I simul rapped off an arch.
Robert Cort · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 800
Stich wrote:A better way to rappel with a noob is to rig their device first at the anchor and then rig your own device after them. You rap first and then give them the fireman belay when they go. Unless they undo their device there is no way they can completely screw it up.
+1

Tandem rap is not for newbies. Works well for two experienced and competent people in order to expedite a descent.
rging · · Salt Lake City, Ut · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 210
cdec wrote: Any properly tied friction hitch works. It is personal preference. Get well.
True, if your personal preference is to lock up your system and need another to get out. You do know prussic can't be undone when loaded like a an autoblock, kleimheist, or french braid can? You better take two with you or you will be waiting for someone to come along.
cdec · · SLC, UT · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 654
rging wrote: True, if your personal preference is to lock up your system and need another to get out. You do know prussic can't be undone when loaded like a an autoblock, kleimheist, or french braid can? You better take two with you or you will be waiting for someone to come along.
Did you pick that tid bit up from Chockstone on the interweb?
Actually a prusik can be released from a partial load as can any friction hitch. That's why we use them.
A prusik tends to bite best and because of this it is usually more difficult to release.
The situation you are most likely referencing goes back a bit into our climbing history and happens when the hitch is above the belay device. A rappel rigged this way can get you into trouble if the terrain is steep and unweighting is difficult or the hitch is too far away to work on after being loaded. This technique is no longer taught nor should it be used.

With you back-up BELOW the device any hitch can be used as the rappel back up. If any hitch is fully loaded below the device you simply transfer the load by locking off directly at the ATC, pulling up some rope and releasing your hitch of choice.

Bam! Knowledge free of charge.
rging · · Salt Lake City, Ut · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 210
cdec wrote: Did you pick that tid bit up from Chockstone on the interweb?
I must admit you really know your stuff. You should write a book. You could call it Things You Can Do But Shouldn't.
Medic741 · · Des Moines, IA (WTF) · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 265

Gaaaah this thread makes my eyes bleed

Crag Dweller · · New York, NY · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125
Stich wrote:A better way to rappel with a noob is to rig their device first at the anchor and then rig your own device after them. You rap first and then give them the fireman belay when they go. Unless they undo their device there is no way they can completely screw it up.
A good suggestion.

If you're going to do this, it is a good idea to extend the noob's belay device with a sling rather than clipping directly to the harness. Otherwise, you'll be using the noob as the rap anchor. And, standing there holding someone's body weight off your harness while they're rappelling isn't the most comfortable position to be in.
Tim Stich · · Colorado Springs, Colorado · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 1,520

It's usually not a problem if the anchor is high and the tension doesn't force the other person to hang awkwardly.

rging · · Salt Lake City, Ut · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 210

A reasonable method would be to clip the device and caribiner through the rope then all they have to do is clip the caribiner to their belay loop when you get to the bottom and unweight the rope. If someone can't clip a caribiner into their belay loop then their should be three of you and a babysitter. You can do this with multiple devices and people if need be.

Wayne DENSMORE · · Superior, CO · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 5

This has moved quite off topic from simul rappel, but to continue the drift:

Stich wrote:A better way to rappel with a noob is to rig their device first at the anchor and then rig your own device after them. You rap first and then give them the fireman belay when they go. Unless they undo their device there is no way they can completely screw it up.
+1

And if you are at all worried they will freak out and have trouble rapping down, you can connect the two of you with a sling. It's sometimes called 'travelling brakes' and you are in control of both of you.

It's also a rescue technique that is good to practice with an experienced buddy, because if the higher device is set in a high friction mode you might have a very slow descent.
Brian in SLC · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Oct 2003 · Points: 21,711
Stich wrote:A better way to rappel with a noob is to rig their device first at the anchor and then rig your own device after them. You rap first and then give them the fireman belay when they go. Unless they undo their device there is no way they can completely screw it up.
Seen it work, and, used it m'self!

Austrian guide and clients in Meteora, Greece
cdec · · SLC, UT · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 654
rging wrote: I must admit you really know your stuff. You should write a book. You could call it Things You Can Do But Shouldn't.
I do "know my stuff" a bit. There is ABSOLUTELY no reason you "shouldn't" use a prusik below the belay device. The scenario you mentioned simply can't happen. I mentioned your thoughts to a friend today. He immediately said, "it's rigged wrong" and he's right. Read a book, take a class or simply do some rope work that is more involved than going chains to chains.

rging wrote: A reasonable method would be to clip the device and caribiner through the rope then all they have to do is clip the caribiner to their belay loop when you get to the bottom and unweight the rope. If someone can't clip a caribiner into their belay loop then their should be three of you and a babysitter. You can do this with multiple devices and people if need be.
Sure that's reasonable but silly and still leaves the door open for something to go wrong. As Stich mentioned Pre-rigging the rappel as it is known (More free climbing knowledge) is a far better solution. Used for years all over the world by folks who know what's up.
rging · · Salt Lake City, Ut · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 210
cdec wrote: There is ABSOLUTELY no reason you "shouldn't" use a prusik below the belay device.
No issue with setting it up below. Its the difference between body weight and 20 pounds so obviously less weight on the knot is far superior for getting out of trouble. The issue I have is with the prusic itself. I have 4-5 books and have never seen one mention a prusic as a friction knot for rappeling. I have practiced a number of friction knots in this scenario and using a prusic is an absolute nightmare if you actually use it to stop you. Its like wrestling an alligator versus pushing lightly on the autoblock. If you are hanging on a rope it is crucial to use a system that can be operated with one hand. Like I said before, it will work but why.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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