Quiver Killers....

Perhaps a bit off topic, but I bought a pair of Dynafit bindings last season, the TLT Radical FTs, which I mounted on some Liberty Double helices. Now I am considering purchasing a pair of Dynafit stoke skis (which have the threaded inserts for dynafit bindings).

Long story short, I could probably afford the skis, but definitely not another pair bindings. Anybody used quiver killers? Thought that'd be an easy way to swap the bindings back and forth since the Stokes basically already have them. Open to thoughts.

Thanks

I use Binding Freedom inserts: bindingfreedom.com/Threaded…

This is the guy who invented them, quiver killer ripped the design off.

Plus, AFAIK binding freedom inserts are less expensive.

I've installed over 100 individual inserts, on over 6 skis. Love them. I use them to do two things, 1) have one pair of dynafit bindings on multiple skis and 2) have one pair of skis which can use either tele or dynafit depending on conditions or my mood.

They work fantastic, just be very methodical and careful installing them, they are not forgiving as just installing as normal.

PS, I'm pretty sure neptune or bent gate would do the full install for you if you didn't want to do it yourself, or if you find yourself in Breck, I'd install them for you for a very reasonable cost(I've got all the tools needed and an assortment of the screws needed to attach them to the ski in my shop. PM if interested)

The Stokes are pieces of shit and Dynafit does not back their product. I would never trust my life to a pre-drilled binding system. On my Stokes I glued the screws in and that is about the only thing that didn't break on that ski. The Stokes do ski nice and are a one-ski quiver, I wish mine lasted longer than 7 days. Check out the K2 Coomback and look into some Plum bindings.

Tim, thanks for your input. Glad to hear you use them with Dynafits. I've heard people say they are happy with binding inserts, but I was a bit concerned to use them with Dynafits since in touring mode, you'd only be engaging half of the screws.

I just ordered binding freedom inserts and so far I'm quite happy. The BF inserts come with a screwdriver slot for easier install.

I've heard good and bad things about the Stokes - mostly durability issues. I'm currently looking at the La Sportiva Lo5 or Hi5 as my fat touring ski.

I've seen tests pulling them until they rip out of the ski, and they were stronger than a normal binding screw. I wouldn't worry about that at all.

Also re: pre drilled skis, I think this years dynafit skis aren't pre drilled, but I may be wrong on that.

Also BWIce: I made a simple tool that makes them much easier to install than a screwdriver. A m5 socket cap screw, about 20mm long, maybe 25. one washer and two nuts stacked. Washer goes against the ski. This puts the inserts in completely flush with the topsheet and makes it a breeze. Just be sure to clean the epoxy off the tool before putting it away or it will be useless after the first time using it

Tim,

Brilliant! I'll have to try that.

Bill

Tim Zander wrote: I made a simple tool... Just be sure to clean the epoxy off the tool before putting it away or it will be useless after the first time using it

I think I've done something similar for installation. FWIW, the inserts from Puderluder/Quiverkiller vs. Binding Freedom are mostly the same, but as mentioned above the latter is from the original designer... plus, he's a nice guy, easy to deal with, and not a ripoff artist.

I have installed a few hundred of these inserts and it's not terribly hard. But keep in mind that you are henceforth committed to keeping the ski w/ inserts til it's dead, as the resale value will be nil.

Regarding dried/cured epoxy on your tools, yes this will muck them up but you can always burn it off with a torch, or soak in Acetone. Please, for all that is holy, do this somewhere with excellent ventilation, and preferably when wearing a mask.

I have skied the stokes for two years now and really don't have anything bad to say about them. Although I do not think the stokes excel in any one condition I feel that for the weight they are a great everyday Wasatch touring ski. On the topic of durability although the dynafit products do not last as long as other products. I feel for the weight they really can' be beat. Dynafit has always taken great care of me with any warrantee problems through the years. Not sure what "Rowdy Wrangellian" was talking about.

I was not that "Stoked." I expected a better product for being one of the pricier skimountaineering skis on the market. Labeling something as a "skimounaineering" product is like calling it a piece of climbing equipment. You should be able to trust that product with your life to some extent and duration. Even their bindings are flimsy, it's nice to see other companies coming out with way better tech binding options.

Rowdy, what problems have you had with the bindings? I have a season on the FT Radicals, I was very happy with them. They make some very light weight bindings, I would expect to perhaps have more durability issues with those. The Radicals are the most beefy binding they make, I have had no complaints.

There's a laundry list of Dynafit binding issues, for a better explanation check out wildsnow.com and tetonat.com. At least the Dynafit patent ran out and has enabled companies like Plum and La Sportiva to further improve on the design. I wish I could get a Spantik boot with a tech fitting in it!

Paul-B wrote:Rowdy, what problems have you had with the bindings? I have a season on the FT Radicals, I was very happy with them. They make some very light weight bindings, I would expect to perhaps have more durability issues with those. The Radicals are the most beefy binding they make, I have had no complaints.

More details from wildsnow. First generation product generally will have some problems. I have the Vertical St and they work fine for me.
wildsnow.com/6908/dynafit-r…
Plum Guide had the similar issue last year with binding pin. Another one to look at is the La Sportiva Tech binding.

Rowdy, what was the durability problem you had with your Stoke? I was actually thinking about getting a pair, but I might just go with Volkl or Coomback.

After seven days of skiing on the Stoke they were trashed and I only clock in at 145lbs. The top sheet on both skis were delaminating on multiple spots, blown edges and side walls, and the bases are soft. At least the soft bases gives you more purchase while down stepping rock? But, they do ski well just not durable and Greg Hill doesn't even ski on Dynafits any more.
Dynafit has been good about fixing their weaknesses, but then they add more weaknesses. Like the new hinged heel riser, and there's still a lot of plastic parts.
I've logged ten seasons of ski guiding in Alaska and six seasons in the Emergency Room at the base of the busiest ski area in North America, I've seen a lot of gear break. The scariest gear failure issue I've seen are pre-drilled binding inserts on snow boards(split), telemark and touring skis. It's a weekly occurrence or a few that some one comes into the ER with their binding still attached to their boot and they are usually super hurt or dead. There's no reason to get your head smashed in our your leg snapped in-half because of gear failure. Skimountaineers have so many hazards to worry about and gear durability shouldn't be one of them.

Thanks, Rowdy! I think Greg Hill went to Salomon. I'll see if I can get a pair of Coomback or maybe BD Justice instead.

Mmmm... I've been driving a pair of 120 underfoot carbon planks with inserts and vertical ST10s for a couple of seasons now. I occasionally switch the clamps to my Megawatts.
My inserts are tapped and epoxied into the ski which is the recommended installation. It's considerably stronger than a regular mount (read: the weak point is the same as a regular mount, the binding screw - hole interface). Installation is a bit nerve wracking since you have to drill very large holes in expensive toys, however it's a pretty simple DYI project if you have drill press. As far as pulling properly installed inserts out of a ski, if it's a common occurrence I'd suggest shedding about 50 lbs and maybe not skiing like you're racing Kitzbühel. Or giving up on foam cores.

Regarding the Dynafiddle issues, the new Radical models seem to have been released as a beta testing round with the consumer, which is something that happens more and more these days (BD boots come to mind). I'm sure all the mods Lou has recommended and Dynafit implemented will solve the majority of the issues for the revamped edition. The fact that Dynafit clamps were never really designed for driving huge skis at speed in crud is pretty obvious though. You can't expect something to perform at 100% outside of its design range. If you do, don't be too surprised when it fails and you get injured. The spandex-wearing Euro skimo crowd on 150cm ultralight skis has no need for a beefed up tech binding. While the new design is an attempt at addressing the needs of the new market, the core of the binding remains the same and it will never outperform a pure alpine clamp.

BTW, there are reports of catastrophic Plum failures out there. And for each pair of Plums there's about 50 pairs of Dynafits being skied, a fact that probably needs to be kept in mind when failure rates are compared.
And Salomon? You want to talk about a laundry list of issues, check out the reports about the Quest boot self-destructing insert...

[/rant]

It's good to hear some positive things about binding inserts! The methods that you guys use to mount those seems legit. I'm still a firm believer that Dynafit skis, bindings and skins are POS. I like their boots so far with an Intuition liner.

I know a couple of people on Stokes who have mentioned the skis take a beating in no time, however it's mostly cosmetic. I have no idea how Dynafit mounts the inserts but I've never heard (personally) of a failure...
I wish I could fit in their boots. The TLT5 made me want to go all weight weenie!