If that is not the standard ethic, hop on it. Most locations I have climbed at all around the US (I have not climbed in CO) usually respect the effort of bolting and cleaning a line. Within the last year, I have seen red tags at the red, Jackson Falls, Willow River and Spearfish. I am guessing that you are just trying to stir up the pot ....
Try out some of the other more challenging lines at Castle Rock - Flunkers roof, barely there, the hulk, gamma bomb..... you won't be disappointed. Or, find a line that you like and bolt it.
I've never understood the closed project "ethic". I mean, who cares who does it first? I won't go into the psychoanalysis, that's for the forums but I appreciate the invitation to climb it and I think I speak for everyone when I say we appreciate the new routes. However, in my opinion closed projects should remain the domain of CO navel gazers.
Maybe you sshould spend the cash it takes, then ALOT of effort, and time. When you put those things into a climb you have a disre to climb it, first. It really is yours. The "invitation" to climb it will come, sometimes when the equipper decides they can't climb it and invites others to try. Sometimes after they've sent it.
It's always tough to understand something you have no experience with. Something to be considered before spouting off about other people.
I've cleaned and spent plenty of time prepping routes Josh, yet I never claim them for myself just because I put in the effort first. I said above we all appreciate the time, money and effort put into routes but to close the route to others just because the person who prepped it is egotistical and lame. I realize that this is some sort of tradition among sport climbers but it's a tradition that should die. No offense to Chris, he's just following that tradition but I humbly request the tradition does not live on.
You think trad climbers don't put time, money and effort into their routes? Do trad climbers put a little red string string on the route they just brushed off 50lbs of moss, dirt and grime to close it off to others? No, they don't, because it's about sharing not owning. It's public land and open to all and whatever is added to that land is public property.
Your opinion isnt the only one out there, And it isn't the final word. In fact Your opinion is likely the minority. You should look at your ego in that you believe all routes are yours. I'd love to hear about which routes you've put effort into. Would you care to name them? I can tell you I put up a new long route this summer. A traditional line that also involved some bolts. All said and done i spent several weeks, hundreds of dollars, and HOURS of work. If someone else had snuck in and climbed it before we had a chance to finish it I'd have been pissed. The end result? There is a a great new route that alot of folks have already enjoyed. Maybe you should just stay in Wisconsin, instead of visiting other places, telling them they are doing it wrong, and then talking shit afterwards?
By Josh Olson From: madison, wisconsin Oct 9, 2012
I'm popping some popcorn for this response. Might I suggest moving it to the forum for the general amusement of all?
Nope. Don't care. He seems like quite the excellent representative for Wisconsin. I know alot of climbers, who climb alot of different things/styles. I've also been climbing a long time. The thing I've learned both from experience and others experiences'; you don't get to dictate other peoples ethics. But if you show them respect for who they are and what they do, they might one day listen to your opinion. I've seen none of that from Mr. "S.P.L.T"...whatever that means.
Do you know who I am? No? Good. It doesn't matter either.
Sorry for the delay. J. you are clearly missing the point, if you are putting up routes strictly to be first then I think you shouldn't be putting up routes at all.
I never said my word is the final one, I'm giving my opinion and argument as to why I think that way, take it or leave it.
At this crag in fact I have put up three trad routes, Buddha Bukstein Crack, Whitney's Chimney, and Whitney's Revenge but I wouldn't say I got an FA not because I am or am not the first but because that's not why I climbed those lines. I climbed and cleaned them to add to the resource.
Just the fact that you would be pissed that someone climbed the route you were putting up before you did shows that you are doing this more for yourself than for the community.
In addition, do you see a guy, finding a boulder problem, cleaning it, scrubbing it, maybe fix the landing, clear the walk off, ie put in time and effort THEN claim no one else can try it until they send it first? It seems a little silly. What you do see is a group of people going out finding a problem, putting in time and effort and then collectively figuring the problem out and sending it. Everyone is psyched when someone sends, not throwing a tantrum because they put in the most work and then someone else snags the coveted FA. At least that's how it works where I'm from. It just seams like a more healthy and mature way to handle things.
You put up 3, 100 ft tradional lines? Even cleaned them? WOW. Did the approach take you 10 minutes too? There's a big difference between the effort I'm talking about and the one you are. Here is the route I mentioned above: mountainproject.com/v/rainbow-highway/107724863
So we have 3, 100ft traditional routes(did you put in any bolts?) With a minor approach and that may have been climbed before. You spent what an hour "cleaning" them? Spend any cash?
Then we have an 800ft. Trad climb at around 13,000 ft. Admittedly the approach isn't huge, by my standards, but you start it at over 12K and its seriously up hill. The first time we went in my pack weighed over 60pounds, my partners was at least 50. We placed a bolted anchor and rappelled down to check out the route. We spent several hours figuring out things like how many bolts were needed and where to place them. Then we jumared back up around 400ft of ropes and left them fixed. We came back again rapped down, worked out more stuff, then rapped to the base and did a serious hike up and out. Then I came back by myself rapped in and spent around 4 hours cleaning. Then I rapped down and did the big hike up and out. Finally we rapped our ropes (one had some nasty core shots) and did the FA. Pulling ropes up as we went. Then hiked the ropes and gear back out. We spent around $100 to equip the route. TONS of effort, 30+ hours over multiple weeks, lost 1 rope to damage. So yes, you're damn right I'd be pissed if after all of that someone like you decided they should be able to climb it before me. All of that effort, time and money created a great new route that the community is already enjoying(check out the comments).I'm quite proud of that route, and the community is greatful for the effort.
If someone equips a sport route they also spend alot of money,time and effort. Because of that they deserve to spend some time trying to do it before johnny hard guy gets to run up it in his flip flops.
If you can't understand and respect that then you have no clue.
Bouldering? Yeah it takes a ton of effort to do that new, sick 4 move V6....or not. Fun? Sure! But who really cares when there's next to nothing that needs to be done to make it go. Apples and Oranges.
You are still not getting it J, try to wrap your tiny little brain around the following. THE AMOUNT OF TIME, MONEY, AND EFFORT, IS UNRELATED TO THE IDEA THAT RED TAGGING IS SELF-SERVING AND THEREFORE CONTRARY TO AN ETHOS OF OPENLY SHARING A NEW ROUTE. Can you tell us how much time, effort and money is required exactly to qualify getting pissed about someone getting the route before you? Of course not, the answer is arbitrary.
If we would like to talk about giving to the climbing community and who gives more I feel obligated to mention that I almost made myself bat-shit crazy putting on comps in which I gave all profits to the access fund. Thus, it might have been some of my efforts that even allowed you to approach this crag in the first place.
ALOT of us give to the community in ways besides spending money on bolts. Sport climbing isn't my thing so I give in other ways, had there been some sweet lines to bolt in WI left that had inspired me I would have bolted them with my own time, money and effort and I wouldn't have bothered to close them to anyone before I got to send them because getting an FA doesn't mean shit to me. If WI had any mountains I would have been running up and down them, cleaning, bolting, and showing them to others regardless of if I sent already or not.
I'm not looking for any recognition for anything I've done and I'm not looking for any courtesies either, I just like to see people sending and reaching their goal, whatever it might be. Besides the routes just at this crag I've scrubbed and cleaned and help put up a good # of routes and boulder problems, perhaps even more total length then your measly 800ft and I've never closed any of them or tried to save the glory for myself.
So, good for you for putting the time, money and effort into putting up a route but to bar anyone else from doing it for any length of time is inherently selfish. Oh...and ColoRADo beer sucks.
Did you happen to check my profile? Did you see the "FA" listed next to a lot of the routes I've entered? If you 'd like to tally the amount of feet I've put into the climbing community and compare go ahead. I'll win, hands down.
If you'd like to have a "who's done more" contest, well its pretty likely I'll win that one as well. ASCA, Access fund, AAC....yup donated, volunteered, and went out of my way for all of them.
I get it. You don't. If a climbing community doesn't respect First ascentionist's, then guess what? There will be far fewer routes put up. You can't be dumb enough to think I'd blow a bunch of time, money and effort just so I could be all..."Look at me!" "I put up a 5.10 climb"!!!! Well, maybe you can. If I was selfish and not concerned about the community as a whole...I'd have pulled the bolts when I was done and not said a word until someone else tried to claim an FA ,later, and I was all..."did it back it 2012". So you see, when the community as a whole respects First ascentionist and lets them play on their routes for alittle while, well the community benefits. You are right...who does the FA of some 5.10, 5.11, 5.12 (or 5.8/.9 in your case) climb really doesn't matter. Respecting the fact that people are putting up new routes and that soon enough they will be available to the public does.
Colorado beer sucks? Ok, cool. Do you know what really sucks? Wisconsin climbing.
You ever get the feeling that you're fucking with someone who likes to be fucked with?
(Sigh) I don't know another way to express that unconditional sharing is the heart of a positive and productive community. It's not about who has done more as no amount of work entitles anyone to close public property to anyone else. Go ahead, red tag your routes if it makes you feel like a man, like you have contributed more to climbing than other people, I couldn't care less. If I see a red tag I will cut it off, get on the route and tic all of the bad holds. If the "owner" was there I would get on, just to see what would happen. People who truly love climbing will continue to establish routes regardless of the perks of doing so. If red-tagging were somehow outlawed route creation would undoubtedly continue, for the love of it. If you need to send first to justify the effort you are truly a weak man and miss the real benefit of putting up a new route.
I would love to continue this chaos but your head is much too thick and I'm off to the hills for a week or two. Climb on.
So you admit CO beer sucks? Finally a little reality from ColoRADo.
Don't you have a silent partner somewhere to go reinvent and act like it hasn't already been figured out before?
I can tell you this..when you cross the wrong person with the wrong red tagged route...you'll most certainly see "what happens". I hope your head is thick enough for that.
I don't need to measure myself to anyone....but when you want to act all high and mighty...well sometimes you need your peepee smacked. Sure seems like you can't handle it...so the old "deny and make counter accusations" routine comes out.
I always love the...I don't have time for this I'm going climbing defense. Its and old classic...but you wouldn't know that.
I admit this, Beer is good.
By Chris treggE Administrator From: Madison, WI Oct 11, 2012
Wow, excellent gentlemen! Well played.
PS. Wisconsin climbing doesn't suck. Well, to those of us who are stuck here anyway... Josh come DL sometime, I'll give you a tour and guarantee you'll have a great time.
Thanks for sharing a different perspective JT. Nick (it is nick right?) the thing to remember is that having an opinion doesn't make you right - regardless of how many times you state it, how loudly you state it, or how many insults you sling. I feel differently, but that is just my opinion .... nothing more ... yawn.
As I said before, if you feel strongly enough, go for it. I would appreciate it if people would be willing to wait - but regardless, I will still be psyched to climb a new to me route at a local cliff.
I will once again throw out that there are many other GOOD routes at this cliff. Have you done them all? If not hop on some of the others ..... Have you even been to CR recently (or are just stirring up the pot)?
Nick your last comment is true (I am not sure about the Colorado beer though). But you are presenting from a selfish perspective - I suggest rereading JT's comments with an open mind. Sounds like you two have a lot of similarities.
Right on Chris, this is nothing personal. I saw no pint where "josh" addressed my points, all I saw were threats of violence and the classic political punditry of name calling.
I don't see how me claiming rights to use public property can be selfish and I don't see how red tagging benefits the community. I have put tons of work into the climbing community and never asked for anything in return but according to "josh" that doesn't count and that's bullshit. Does it all really matter? No, but it's fun to debate.
I have tried all the lines at this crag and would love to get on the new ones but I don't live in WI anymore. I might come back for a week in November though.
BTW, the hangers on the other new climbs were purchased by me and then given to put up new lines in WI.
There was no threat of violence by me. Period. There was simply a fact stated that should the knucklehead above do what he said here: "If I see a red tag I will cut it off, get on the route and tic all of the bad holds. If the "owner" was there I would get on, just to see what would happen."
Then this: "..when you cross the wrong person with the wrong red tagged route...you'll most certainly see "what happens". I hope your head is thick enough for that."
So stop being a sally and acting like I threatened you.
I addressed your issues, you're just to dense to notice.
This: "BTW, the hangers on the other new climbs were purchased by me and then given to put up new lines in WI."
...is classic look at what I did...MEMEME! Douche baggery!
Everything else aside, just a question for the community. In a state where just about every route is top rope-able why are un finished projects being bolted? Why scar up the rock before you are certain the route goes? I witnessed some one else bolt a route at Castle Rock before he even top roped it. Then when he began working the route he realized how awkward his bolt placements were.
Ryan- Which route are you referring to? I can think of a couple routes that fit the bill. It is common practice for a developer to move a bolt to a better placement as a route is being worked, unfortunately not all developers are willing to do this. Another good reason to wait for routes to open up ....
Nick- let me know if you want to climb at CR when you are back in November. I spend 90% of my climbing time at private crags in Iowa and am always interested in heading to CR. Just stay off the closed projects and wear your climbing shoes .... :)
Wow - amazing the heated debates hidden in the deep dark corners of MP! Rhoads, you are as clueless as ever. As others have mentioned already, MOST climbers agree on giving the equipers a reasonable amount of time to finish what they started. Am I seeing that photo right? It looks like a 15' boulder problem with 4 bolts on it.
Having a community consensus is part of what makes us a "community" doesn't it? This is an old & tired debate as you already know. You're entitled to your opinion, but you're an outlier and in the minority. I see it as common courtesy to let someone complete the process of a new route experience. How tall a route is does not matter - one person's boulder problem is someone else's Trango Tower.
So, if the "community" agreed that stealing a car was ok, you would agree? Just pointing out that your logic makes no sense ;)
Its this attitude that someone has someone has ownership over a public resource that causes a rift in the community. If people would simply give to the community and demand nothing in return we would all be better off.
"Communist"?!?!? This is getting too good! Been watching too much Fox News I think.
If height doesn't matter then why did Glenn make a point of it here: "Am I seeing that photo right? It looks like a 15' boulder problem with 4 bolts on it." And you here: "So we have 3, 100ft traditional routes(did you put in any bolts?) With a minor approach and that may have been climbed before. You spent what an hour "cleaning" them?" So now you are telling me scale doesn't matter?!!? You made such a stink about how much effort you put into your big climb, get your story straight!
"Coward"?!?!? HAHAHA! First, I will bet there's a million "J. Thompson"s out there and they are probably man enough to capitalize "josh". Second, we heard that pathetic insult already, what else you got?
"com·mu·nism [kom-yuh-niz-uhm] Show IPA noun 1. a theory or system of social organization based on the holding of all property in common, actual ownership being ascribed to the community as a whole or to the state."
Sure sounds an awful lot like your rantings.
You don't get it and you never will. So there is no point in discussing any of it with you.I hope you enjoy being in a community that, as a whole, thinks you are a clueless tool.
Your definition states that all property is owned by the community, this is not the case here. There is private property in our system but the above route lies in public property. If you want to label me a communist that's fine, it's a pretty good idea in theory but public property in our capitalist system is still public property. So, your point doesn't really go anywhere.
As for what people think about me, I couldn't care less. I'm here to present the ideas with rationale and hope that a few lurkers might agree. As for convincing internet blowhards such as yourself, you are a lost cause but people like you certainly aid in presenting how absurd your views are. Thanks for the help!
So I'm the guy that put this climb up, pretty heated slapfest going on here. As I'm a developer with only a few hundred routes installed and countless hours doing work, making trails and paths to limit impact- I paint hangers to look natural and remain unseen. I've met and am friends with a shit ton of other developers that put in the same efforts so climbers that don't do work can have a place to play with little recognition and we usually don't want it but would like a little respect and patience for new route development in any area. I have only met a few dirtball climbers(wolf) that seek out tagged lines and sneak around behind developers backs and then there are the other 99.9% the climbing community that can wait for the line to open and appreciate the gift to the people. Tagged routes are the norm in pretty much every crag I've been to- from the pro's to the newbies, jumping on a tagged line could be bad for your health if the right person rolls up and you are on the wall, your belayer, the 1 holding your life might be saying off belay and running for their life- some take this very seriously as it's their sweat and money and time invested.
Heh, my argument is made pretty clear above so I don't feel the need to touch on it but for the record I would never personally snip a red tag. I'm simply saying there's alot of people who contribute to the climbing community in a variety of ways, not just by bolting routes.