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Replacing ARCing with Intervals?

Original Post
Keyan P · · Portland, ME · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 80

Hi, I have been climbing for just over 3 years but have only recently been trying training. I am trying to follow the "Rockprodigy" article training plan in preparation for a week long trip to the Red in November; my main weakness is likely endurance and I know that I have to get that up before this trip.

My question is whether anyone has tried replacing ARCing sessions with some sort of intervals (e.g. # of moves x sets w/ # rests) ? Does replacing ARCing with shorter more intense climbing intervals negate the benefits?

I have a limited amount of time during the week and ARC workouts are very boring for me (and for many others I am sure). I have found them to be decreasing my motivation and making climbing sessions into something of a chore.

Any input is helpful, thank you!

Adam Leedy · · Austin, TX · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 760

This year is the first year I've really focused on training so my experience is limited.
That said, I don't do the ARC phase at all. Mostly because I just don't like ARC training. And it is really hard to do because of busyness of the gym etc...

How would Intervals differ from the PE phase of 4x4's? a 4x4 is essentially High Intensity Interval Training for climbing.

Also, for the Red, the 4x4 phase is going to be the most beneficial IMO. I'm starting a cycle this week in preparation for a long thanksgiving trip to the Red (my family lives near-by, it's my home crag). And my schedg looks something like this:

Coming off of a two week rest period where I only climbed on the weekends and, surprisingly, on-sighted several routes that were beyond my max red-point before my last cycle.
9/13 -> 10/4 HYP
10/8 -> 10/25 Max R
10/29 -> 11/16 PE (4x4's on the 45 degree wall and cave at the local gym)
one week of general climbing/projecting locally
11/23 -> 12/2 go to the Red and SEND!

During all of those phases I won't be doing any climbing or bouldering except for on the weekends when I like to get out on real rock to stay psyched. Nothing above my current limit and no projecting until the middle of November.

Hopefully this is of some help to you.

Mike Anderson · · Colorado Springs, CO · Joined Nov 2004 · Points: 3,265

I think ARCing is very beneficial, and it is not a mutually exclusive workout...you don't have to eliminate anything to do it. You can do it at the end of a workout, or the day after a hard workout.

The problem with 4x4s and the Red is that the routes there are so consistently sustained, that 4x4s don't often prepare you for the climbing adequately.

A typical 4x4 is 2-4 minutes. While this is sufficient for may limestone routes with bouldery cruxes separated by good rests, there aren't many climbs at the Red that are over that quickly. At the Red, you will face climbs that require you to climb upwards of 10 minutes at a (frustratingly sometimes)low intensity. Standard 4x4s won't prepare you for this at all.

Do you have any specific routes in mind? That would really help tailor your training.

PS, there are very few routes at the Red that are 45 degrees overhanging, and they are all in the Madness Cave. 5-30 degrees would be much better preparation...and it depends on what grades you're looking at.

Keyan P · · Portland, ME · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 80

I have never been to the Red. I definitely want to try some routes at the Motherlode. I have just begun breaking into the 5.12 range at Rumney and I am planning on doing 12a's and b's, looking at classics like Ale-8-one and Chainsaw. I'd like to attempt routes like Tuna Town, although it will likely be way over my head...

LeeAB Brinckerhoff · · Austin, TX · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 10,288
Keyan P wrote:I have never been to the Red. I definitely want to try some routes at the Motherlode. I have just begun breaking into the 5.12 range at Rumney and I am planning on doing 12a's and b's, looking at classics like Ale-8-one and Chainsaw. I'd like to attempt routes like Tuna Town, although it will likely be way over my head...
With what you are looking at trying, I would go with what Mike says about 5-30 degrees overhung. The only thing I can think of that is 45 at that grade is Twinkie and definitely worth getting on. Doing 4x4's on a rope would be better than bouldering, or maybe 3x4's (up, down, up try to make the last route harder than the first and maybe down climb using any feet). I would tend to agree that if you are on-sighting 10 minutes plus on a route is standard, even pushing to an hour with lots of resting on what ever passes for a jug. However, for red-pointing, depending on what wall you are at I would think generally less than 10 minutes unless there is a really good rest or you are truly at your red-point limit (usually not the case on a trip), where you need to milk every rest.
Keyan P · · Portland, ME · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 80

So ARCing is definitely necessary...

Now Mike you mentioned that it is okay to integrate other climbing into an ARC day? If I am doing some climbing before or after an ARC session (on the same day) does it matter what I am climbing? For instance, is it bad to be doing hard bouldering on the same day, or should the climbing stay endurance oriented? Or does this depend on what stage of the cycle I am in? Ideally I would like to just climb whatever looks fun in the gym to balance out the boredom of ARCing...

Rajiv Ayyangar · · San Francisco, CA · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 220
Keyan P wrote:So ARCing is definitely necessary... Now Mike you mentioned that it is okay to integrate other climbing into an ARC day? If I am doing some climbing before or after an ARC session (on the same day) does it matter what I am climbing? For instance, is it bad to be doing hard bouldering on the same day, or should the climbing stay endurance oriented? Or does this depend on what stage of the cycle I am in? Ideally I would like to just climb whatever looks fun in the gym to balance out the boredom of ARCing...
A visit to Shagg Crag might be a fun supplement to your ARC training. A few laps on Ginseng or Shagg It will get your blood pumping!
Mike Anderson · · Colorado Springs, CO · Joined Nov 2004 · Points: 3,265

ARCing should always be the last thing you do in your workout. Ideally you wouldn't combine it with hard bouldering or campusing because the purposes of the two workouts are diametrically opposed (campusing seeks to increase recruitment, making you less efficient while ARCing seeks to increase efficiency).

Being old and patient, I take two rest days between hard strength days, so I ARC on my first rest day:

Day 1: Hangboard
Day 2: ARC
Day 3: rest/cardio
Day 4: Hangboard...

If I didn't ARC I would still take the two rest days, so ARCing doesn't take anything away from my training.

Brendan N · · Salt Lake City, Utah · Joined Oct 2006 · Points: 405

I feel compelled to add my two cents as I have been ARCing for the last 6 weeks and covered over 35,000 feet of mellow terrain.
ARCing and Intervals are meant to work two different systems, aerobic and anaerobic.
You are not going to get the same physiological adaptations if you substitute one for the other.
To keep motivation high I use bluetooth headphones and trashy pop music.
I work constantly to refine technique, pacing, breathing and relaxation as I climb.
I find ARC workouts to be some of the most convenient because I don't need to warm up for them, just hop on the wall for 20 minutes, rest for 15, climb for 20 and I am out of the gym in an hour long lunch break.
Contrary to Mike, I find them to be a great warm up for hard climbing.
I was surprised that after ARCing almost exclusively for 6 weeks I can now boulder harder than ever.

Will S · · Joshua Tree · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 1,061

If you are doing the ARC correctly, IMO it is just another interval - essentially a long duration aerobic threshold or "tempo" style interval. JLPs point is critical: get the intensity correct for the interval length your are attempting to train.

The consensus for interval work seems to be the shorter the interval, the lower the work:rest ratio. In other words, for 4x4s where the work interval is maybe 1m30s, work to rest should run somewhere around 1:4 (this is an area that is ripe for research imo, I see professionals in various sports using between 1:2 and 1:6 for this type short AE interval work), whereas an ARC with 30m-45m work time, you should probably be up to a work to rest of 1:1.

Aside from being boring, it can be very difficult to get ARC workouts done due to unsuitable terrain in the gym, interference from other climbers, etc. It's for sure the hardest thing for me to get motivated for and carry through.

Keyan P · · Portland, ME · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 80

As a general ARC question, do you all rest a lot during ARCing? Towards the end of a 30min block I tend to climb for 2-3mins, rest on a jug for little, repeat. Is this normal? Or should I make the climbing easier so that I don't need to rest on jugs/shake out?

Brendan N · · Salt Lake City, Utah · Joined Oct 2006 · Points: 405
isolationist wrote: As for the correct intensity, it seems many have a strong opinion on what the right intensity is, but I've also noticed that there isn't actually a concensus.
The upper end of the intensity window is easy to understand, it must be under the aerobic/anaerobic threshold. The bottom end can be anywhere, but I want to get the most out of my workout so it is as near to that threshold as possible.

Keyan P wrote:As a general ARC question, do you all rest a lot during ARCing?
If you push yourself you will rest less as you wire sequences and get fitter. I wouldn't dumb down your difficulty to rest less, just try to make your movement more efficient.
Will S · · Joshua Tree · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 1,061
isolationist wrote:Will, am I understanding that you think 1' on/1' off x 30 would qualify as an ARC workout?
Huh? No, more like 30m on, 15-30m off, x2.
Monomaniac · · Morrison, CO · Joined Oct 2006 · Points: 17,295
Keyan P wrote:...ARC workouts are very boring for me (and for many others I am sure). I have found them to be decreasing my motivation and making climbing sessions into something of a chore. Any input is helpful, thank you!
A bit tangential to the thread at this point, but somehwat relevant to the OP... I agree ARC workouts can be very boring, and know other climbers have the same experience, so I put together some ideas here on how to make ARC training slightly less boring.

isolationist wrote:...I agree with those who put on the headphones and enjoy long duration low intensity climbing. As for the correct intensity, it seems many have a strong opinion on what the right intensity is, but I've also noticed that there isn't actually a concensus.

If you want my two cents on the proper intensity for ARC workouts (and other types of training for that matter), you can find them
here.
Eric Carlos · · Soddy Daisy, TN · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 121
Keyan P wrote:As a general ARC question, do you all rest a lot during ARCing? Towards the end of a 30min block I tend to climb for 2-3mins, rest on a jug for little, repeat. Is this normal? Or should I make the climbing easier so that I don't need to rest on jugs/shake out?
That is the best form or ARC training if you plan to send anything at the Red, and especially the Motherlode. Every climb there will give you something to shake on at least every 20-30 ft. But if you have not built the necessary fitness and ability to recover, you will pump out.
ErikaE · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2010 · Points: 5
Mike Anderson wrote:PS, there are very few routes at the Red that are 45 degrees overhanging, and they are all in the Madness Cave. 5-30 degrees would be much better preparation...and it depends on what grades you're looking at.
Hey Mike,
Wouldn't steeper training at 45 degrees translate to more gently overhanging climbs as well? I just moved to Chicago, and the gym here (Hidden Peak) has a lot more wall space at 45 degrees than at the 5 - 30 range.

Also, does traversing ARC translate well to routes, or should you make an effort to climb mostly up or down? Hidden Peak is a bouldering gym, so it's a lot easier to get endurance training in if you're traversing. I have to travel pretty far to get outside, so I'm hoping to make the best use I can of my training time. So far, mostly planning on routes in the Red, either 11s or easy 12s.
Eric Carlos · · Soddy Daisy, TN · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 121

It is best to train at a similar angle to what you want to climb. Training at 45 deg will not work the body the same as on 10 deg overhang. Holds will not be similar, neither will body position. The same would apply in reverse order.

Aleks Zebastian · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 175
Mike Anderson wrote: I think ARCing is very beneficial, and it is not a mutually exclusive workout...you don't have to eliminate anything to do it. You can do it at the end of a workout, or the day after a hard workout. The problem with 4x4s and the Red is that the routes there are so consistently sustained, that 4x4s don't often prepare you for the climbing adequately. A typical 4x4 is 2-4 minutes. While this is sufficient for may limestone routes with bouldery cruxes separated by good rests, there aren't many climbs at the Red that are over that quickly. At the Red, you will face climbs that require you to climb upwards of 10 minutes at a (frustratingly sometimes)low intensity. Standard 4x4s won't prepare you for this at all. Do you have any specific routes in mind? That would really help tailor your training. PS, there are very few routes at the Red that are 45 degrees overhanging, and they are all in the Madness Cave. 5-30 degrees would be much better preparation...and it depends on what grades you're looking at.

Climbing friend anderson,

Why must you ARC to have the long lasting guns you desire? Is it not your guns' local aerobic energy system maxing out and being trained constantly even whilst you work high above that into the far more manly alactic and lactic anaerobic energy systems?

The study of the runner it show that mitochondrial and capillary density is increased even with 30 second sprint intervals?
Mark Paulson · · Raleigh, NC · Joined Sep 2010 · Points: 141

Epic resurrection!

Mark E Dixon · · Possunt, nec posse videntur · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 974

Aleks- I found intervals very effective.
Best for me was 5on/5off x 4 on the treadwall.
You may have to experiment to find the most effective duration and rest/work interval for yourself.

I don't think Mike follows this forum anymore, but would be delighted to be proven wrong.
You want to ask on the RCTM forum instead.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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