Is your sport for sale? Adidas Outdoor, Nike 6.0...: Kiss or Kill?

Sean Nelb wrote: This wasn't limited to the government: climbing organizations had similar rules. The AMC and Vulgarians in the Gunks were famously at odds over the Appies attempts to require skill level checks and belay tests.

If I recall my history, access at the Gunks was threatened after a climbing death and the Appies negotiated the rules with the landowner, thereby keeping the cliff open. The rules continued many years beyond their usefulness, which is what rules tend to do.

Mr. Holmes wrote:Looking at brands like Nike's ACG and now Adidas what are your thoughts on Big Corporate creating new brand image? Will it take $$$ to bring Climbing into the 21st century in regard to legitimate paychecks for industry pros,olympic placement, etc.?

Since you edited you original post heavily I shall address your new one.

1. They aren't trying to create a new brand image, they are trying to break into/ utilize untapped markets. I doubt Nike and Addidas want to change their highly successful brand image of being the top athletic clothing companies.

2. Nike and the ACG brand has been around for a while and I know it sure as hell hasn't made a noticeable dent in most extreme sports that's it's ventured into BESIDES BMX and Skate but that can be attributed to the urban cultural connected to those.

3. One of the HUGE hurdles of getting a new sport into the Olympics is that each country can only take a certain number of athletes to the games, and when a new sport wants in it's threatening to all the sports that are already in there.

4. Again having heard the "how do we legitimize our sport?" question and argument in MANY extreme sports (mtb, bmx, skating, surfing, paintball, parkour/ freerunning, climbing...etc) You're asking for fringe sports to be "legitimate". WHY do they have to be on the same "level"? Even if you just took MP and ST as examples for climbing communities (although not great ones statistically) most people would say that they enjoy climbing being a little weird and that it's nice not everyone and their mother does it.

I'm not arguing that top pros shouldn't get paid decent amounts, or that the sport shouldn't grow. But you have to look past the community that you are in and see that community in the larger picture of the global market.

To address other people's arguments on the whole management/ restrictions issue, sure statistically speaking more people does bring up more potential for accidents to happen. But like with anything else you have to use that larger participant base in a positive way. Get more people in access organizations, teach more people how to do things properly. Oh look you've just created more people to make the sport safer and to stay accessible.

Ryan - I think we actually agree on this...I should have said that most televised sports are boring to watch...and I do understand soccer...played for years. My point, which I didn't articulate very well, was that most sports are boring to those that don't play them unless they are incredibly simple like track or swimming...fastest wins...it's simple. I grew up playing soccer, nordic skiing, and road biking none of these are exceedingly popular in the US. Soccer and Road biking have some of the highest spectator numbers in Europe and are recently catching on in the US. I feel like at most soccer games and bikes races the majority of your spectators are people who participate in the sport or have a cultural connection...no different than climbing. I certainly don't think the rest of the world is like the US...from my experience in Asia and South America it's not...as a fan of individual sports it hopefully never will be!

Bouldering is growing at more than 30% per year precisely because it's cost of entry is less and it's exciting...I don't think it will ever draw what "mainstream" sports do but I still think the athletes deserve their chance for gold...as do you obviously.

RANAR- +1!!!

Sorry for the heavy edit on OP but it was becoming clear my original question was not articulated well or had become diluted.

Your responses were not only direct but factual and much appreciated.
For the record I am of the mind that we must cling to our quirky (weird) grass-roots life-style called simply called "climbing". I simply saw a push on the industry (as I work in it) and was curious what others think.

safe travels!

Why is everyone talking about watching climbing? I could care less if more people wanted to watch televised climbing. I care about more jerks at the crags, more overbolted outdoor gym routes and general increase in the level of mainstream popularity of trying to be cool by being "a climber".

I usually associate "mainstream" climbing as being dumbed down to the lowest common denominator and not having to do with if it is fun to watch or not.

Mr. Holmes wrote:RANAR- +1!!! Sorry for the heavy edit on OP but it was becoming clear my original question was not articulated well or had become diluted. Your responses were not only direct but factual and much appreciated. For the record I am of the mind that we must cling to our quirky (weird) grass-roots life-style called simply called "climbing". I simply saw a push on the industry (as I work in it) and was curious what others think. safe travels!

Well thank you. After being part of so many extreme sports forums where everyone is either 15 or acts like it :P, I try to rise above it. After seeing so many try I was frankly quite amazed to see when BMX racing made it.

Maybe I'm wrong...but I'm not that concerned about overcrowding. The crags that are overcrowded are generally sport and generally have a very short approach. I suspect those crags will continue to stay that way. Most of the "low hanging fruit" has been picked and most people aren't willing to put the time required into development of new areas which leaves a plethora of great stuff out there for those of us willing to hike and develop.

On most weekend days Rumney is crowded but if you are willing to hike an extra ten minutes most of the areas further from the parking lots are empty and have fantastic climbing...I'm not even worried about saying this because most are just too lazy to hike there. Will the drive by stuff in Boulder Canyon always be crowded on a weekend...probably...but if you take a little drive and then hike a little there are tons of locations you can have to yourself.

I believe that no matter how popular climbing becomes most people are too lazy to hike much over 15-20 minutes for their approach...they would rather sit and wait at the popular crag than hike and have a remote area to themselves.

Thankfully this leaves a ton of super amazing climbing for those of us who are not lazy. It's similar to hiking...the 1/2 mile hike to the scenic vista is always crowded but the 10 mile climb to the mountain lake...not so many people!

- Overall Participation in Outdoor Climbing is down and declining. Peaked a few years ago

- Climbing tends to weed out the "weak" fairly quickly. Many try it at the gym and pick it up as their "new cool sport". You see about a 2-3 year life cycle with these people before they move on to the next thing be it Yoga, SUP or whatever.

- "Real" climbing is far to "uncomfortable" for it to be mainstream. Risk, the effort involved, the fact it can hurt to climb etc etc all make it a sport, to some degree, for people who enjoy suffering as part of the payoff.

- Yes, pure, short-approach sport climbing and bouldering might still have room for growth but there's just no way these things will ever be mainstream like snowboarding etc etc.

BTW - Nike ACG and Adidas have been in the outdoor segment for a LONG time. Anyone remember the classic ACG Cinder Cone from the late 90s/early 00s? Adidas has been in/out of the segment for a long time too. Reebok and Merrel both tried the segment and bailed.

Look, I get why the "mainstreaming" of the gear can bother people. It dilutes an image we enjoy associating with. I know I was always proud that I had a TNF or Marmot Jacket way back in high school (late 90s) well before TNF went mainstream. Marmot followed later. It made you unique or was an emblem of your adventurous spirit or whatever.

Climbing is much more a personal endeavor like running or weightlifting or whatever. There's very little visual interest to anyone not involved in the sport directly. To use a Track and Field example, people "get" Usain Bolt and the 100m. Outright speed is something people, even non-runners, understand to a certain extent. Even with Usain being the BEST EVER in the event, he's not a huge name in the US. It's just not a marketable sport here. Now take something like a world class 1500m. People just don't "Get" a race like that. The speed isn't "all out" and it's just foreign and really boring to watch. The performance is INCREDIBLE for someone familiar with the effort but to others, not so much.

Climbing will never be mainstream. It may pickup more participants of a certain ilk to which it appeals but it has far, far too high a discomfort and "effort required" factor (among others) to make it "the next big thing".

20 kN wrote: We dont need large corporations sponsoring pro climbers and bringing unnecessary attention to our sport. One of the nice things about climbing it is still relatively small compared to most sports. However, if our sport catches up with other sports, there are going to be some big changes, and most of them wont be for the best. If our sport grows to the size of other sports, landowners, corporations, and the government will step in and start to try to "manage" our sport. We don't need to be managed. So called management is more accurately called restriction. We will have people telling us how to climb, where to climb, when to climb, ect. We dont need that. I like that I can go to the crag and pretty much do whatever I want. If I want to top rope, I can do that. If I want to free solo El Cap, I can do that. That is how our sport needs to stay.

+1

Agreed- so... what are WE going to do about it?...

Mr. Holmes wrote:Agreed- so... what are WE going to do about it?...

Eat cabbage and sardines everyday before going to the gym, and fill the place with gas so rank that any beginners will never come back. Within 5-6 years, the climbing population will be back to a manageable size. Of course your gym will have closed from a lack of customers too, but some sacrifices may be necessary.

What crowds do, aside from stacking up on the classic moderates and attracting more regs and ranger presence, is destroy the ability to live the climbing bum existence. It destroys the ability to have free areas. Everything becomes a fee opportunity for some agency, city, state, etc. They see people using it and go "hey, let's put a sign and a picnic table and start charging".

There used to be a big circuit of crags with free undeveloped camping, few people. You could travel around the west for years hitting crag after crag never wanting or needing "facilities" or "developed camping". Those days are dwindling. At least I got to experience them, but I'm still saddened by their demise because it means climbing becomes even more of an upper-middle class sport of privilege than it was before. When even shitty little places like New Jack City have camp hosts and fees now, the end is near.

So people are whinning because they cant be dirtbag climbing bums anymore?

Thats pretty selfish ;)

If you've ever turned someone onto climbing, inspired a person to give it a go, or seen how it transforms them when they discover why we do this then you know more people discovering climbing is a good thing. Yeah, commercialism sucks. Chinese sweat shop made heavily overpriced goods suck. Awful marketing that cheeses up our sport sucks. But seeing people find a whole new appreciation for nature and climbing is pretty damn awesome.

It's never going to reach some critical mass that hurts the sport. It's going to gain a few more corporate entities, and a little bit of exploitation. But the game is already hit by a lot of crappy chinese labor using entities anyway, and it's exploitation is really nothing new. Support the quality products you always have and don't be afraid to embrace some new climbers, because once upon a time someone probably did the same for you.

Adidas approach shoes. With "climbing specific toe".

Mr. Holmes wrote:Agreed- so... what are WE going to do about it?...

Honestly, who really cares? Who cares about whether comp climbing is in the Olympics. Who cares whether climbing gear becomes more mainstream? Who cares whether climbing pros make more or less money? Who cares if "our sport" gets more attention or not? Who really cares what a bunch of internet wankers think?

Right now we have more options for gear, more avenues to get climb information, and more access to transportation to get ourselves to climbing destinations than ever before since people have been climbing rocks. It's a damn good time to be a climber.

Fuck it dude...let's just go climbing.

Will S wrote:What crowds do, aside from stacking up on the classic moderates and attracting more regs and ranger presence, is destroy the ability to live the climbing bum existence. It destroys the ability to have free areas. Everything becomes a fee opportunity for some agency, city, state, etc. They see people using it and go "hey, let's put a sign and a picnic table and start charging".

This.

I'm appalled at what it costs to camp now, and how scarce easy access to free camping is becoming. The Gunks is great but overrun, and becomes more expensive for climbing passes every year. I don't see any justification for it other than supply and demand.

John Wilder wrote:That said, as a part of the industry, I honestly don't see climbing becoming anything like a mainstream sport in the outdoor world. Climbing gyms are doing extremely well, but they are unique that way due to their easy accessibility and (perceived) lack of risk.

For every 100 people climbing gyms pull in that won't last 6 months, a handful will go on to sport climbing, and a few of those will go on to trad climb. No question about it there is a "trickle up" effect from gyms.

Ten years ago, all of Massachusetts had only one small, uncrowded, dedicated climbing gym. Since then, two small and four large climbing gyms have opened, and two more large ones are currently under construction for just the Boston area. The largest gym in Boston is the largest gym I have ever seen in the US, and it is so crowded on weekday nights that the massive parking lot is full and you can't walk through the gym without bumping into people. The idea that this has had no effect on new people deciding to climb outdoors is unquestionably false.

Boston alone will now have 5 dedicated climbing gyms in a 10 mile radius, three of them gigantic. Anyone who thinks that isn't going to add substantially to crowding at crags over the next 5-10 years is living in a fantasy world. Steep rock is a limited resource, and when you can't go outside to climb without seeing and hearing dozens of people, or waiting in line for the best climbs, it just plain sucks.

I feel like it's only a matter of time until places like Yosemite start charging for permits to climb and putting restrictions on the numbers allowed at any given time.

CWood wrote:This. I'm appalled at what it costs to camp now, and how scarce easy access to free camping is becoming. The Gunks is great but overrun, and becomes more expensive for climbing passes every year. I don't see any justification for it other than supply and demand. For every 100 people climbing gyms pull in that won't last 6 months, a handful will go on to sport climbing, and a few of those will go on to trad climb. No question about it there is a "trickle up" effect from gyms. Ten years ago, all of Massachusetts had only one small, uncrowded, dedicated climbing gym. Since then, two small and four large climbing gyms have opened, and two more large ones are currently under construction for just the Boston area. The largest gym in Boston is the largest gym I have ever seen in the US, and it is so crowded on weekday nights that the massive parking lot is full and you can't walk through the gym without bumping into people. The idea that this has had no effect on new people deciding to climb outdoors is unquestionably false. Boston alone will now have 5 dedicated climbing gyms in a 10 mile radius, three of them gigantic. Anyone who thinks that isn't going to add substantially to crowding at crags over the next 5-10 years is living in a fantasy world. Steep rock is a limited resource, and when you can't go outside to climb without seeing and hearing dozens of people, or waiting in line for the best climbs, it just plain sucks. I feel like it's only a matter of time until places like Yosemite start charging for permits to climb and putting restrictions on the numbers allowed at any given time.

Implicit in a lot of the complaints in this thread is the idea that people who already climb are more entitled to the the resource than people who are just discovering the sport. I'm just not seeing under what logic that plays out.

I think mattm makes some good points - aren't people on average getting lazier?

Jason N. wrote: Implicit in a lot of the complaints in this thread is the idea that people who already climb are more entitled to the the resource than people who are just discovering the sport.

No, that is not implicit at all. It's wildly off the mark IMO. Nobody is saying "no new climbers, period". People are questioning the growth and pace of growth of the total population of climbers and how that is affected by commercialization via corporations, gyms, etc.

I guess I was off-base then. But if people are genuinely interested in the sport - once they've learned more about it, been more exposed to it, tried it out, whatever - then I still that my point stands. It still seems to me like it ultimately boils down to people feeling like their space is being encroached upon.

Trust me I hear you about the over-crowding crags issue, I'm just trying to think of an unselfish way to frame it and I'm having trouble.

well yippee kay yay ... why dont some people here run around the crags and tell people they CANT climb just because some people think its getting busy, and they want to be dirtbags and not pay for anything

utterly and totally selfish ... everyone starts somewhere