??Wolf's Head Accident - Aug. 18/19??

Ben Botelho wrote: the pair was rescued at 4 p.m. Monday.

Funny how things get twisted.... they were "rescued" at around 1 PM Sunday. I was there - I watched them walk down the col with 3 orange clad SAR folks, then watched the orangemen get in the chopper and depart - while the 2 climbers began their walk back to the cirque.

BigJuggsjohnson wrote: OK like climbing multipitch route as it is not putting both parties at some degree of risk? Like climbing 20 ft 5.6 grade placing frequently and not taking a whipper on your smallest piece is too much to bear?

ARGH! There are so many things wrong with this, I don't even know where to begin. First of all, the climbing route was 5.6, not the rap route. Rap routes are often completely different (could be steeper, harder, mankier/looser, much less pro, etc). Secondly, just because you are accepting some risks in multipitch climbing doesn't mean that you should accept other unnecessary risks like simulclimbing up rap routes. The point here is to get yourself out of a predicament as safely as possible. The fact that you don't know a safer technique isn't a valid reason to advocate for an unsafe one.

Anyone reading this and trying to learn from it: Please don't think that you should start simulclimbing up rap routes to free stuck ropes. Research this topic and you will see that this isn't the solution. Study the links in Tom Johannesmeyer's post on page 2 of this thread. Take a rock rescue course. Talk to AMGA guides.

As many people have stated in this thread, you will have enough free rope in most of these situations to lead up while being belayed properly on gear. In a worst case scenario where you don't have enough free rope, one climber can be safely anchored while the other leads up utilizing a variety of rope-solo techniques.... all of which are safer than simulclimbing up rap routes.

Jason Halladay wrote: You said it, Eric. And we climbers get all defensive when the "general public" starts crying about how their tax dollars shouldn't be spent for rescues like this. If this "yuppie 911" trend keeps up, I won't be able to disagree with the general public anymore.

Nice article, Jason, thanks for sharing. I just wanted to add that maybe carrying a GriGri even in the backcountry is a good idea especially for less experienced climbers - a) they are great for ascending ropes, b) they're also good for pulling stuck ropes - I've got ropes unstuck using them many times. The new grigri 2s probably weigh just as much as your SPOT device (ok, I've never held one in my hands so I have no idea what they weigh) or a cellphone. Slightly off topic, has anyone used a Mammut Smart to ascend ropes by any chance?

If you want to be in the mountains, you need to be able to get yourself out ... if you do not, there might not always be a rescue bringing you hot tea and cookie.

And calling a rescue cause you did not want to ascend two stuck ropes is pathetic.

doligo wrote:Slightly off topic, has anyone used a Mammut Smart to ascend ropes by any chance?

I do it quite frequently while jugging to take pictures. It works, but it doesn't work as well as a gri-gri does. It is more difficult, although not that much, to lower a little bit to change angles. It also has a very small bit of slop as you weight it, the rope doesn't bite as quickly as it does on a gri-gri. It's only an inch at the very most, but inches add up.

Eric and Lucie wrote:Geez people, if everybody starts calling SAR every time they get a rope stuck, we're in for trouble. Just this weekend, we were on the Diamond and a team ended up finishing their route well after dark. They exited upper Kiener's to the summit. I am sure they were cold and all, and worried about descending the NF in the dark, but what did they do? Answer: they triggered a satellite rescue beacon..!!! Then immediately proceeded to descend the NF after all and spend the night back at their bivy near Chasm View!

That is f-in' nuts. Maybe one day satellite beacons will be able to deliver a near lethal dose of pain like the Agonizer in Evil Star Trek universe. The SAR contact will simply determine if the call was legitimate or not and say, "Your call was unwarranted. Place the unit against your neck and wait for the tone."

AHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

PRRose wrote: That is a non-answer. Simul-climbing is much more dangerous than belayed climbing. Do you understand that?

OK let me say this: u got 20 ft and the other half is stuck and blown away way left where u can't see it. All u see is a loop of the rope 50 ft above u. U never solo rope lead before no gri gri. So u got 30 ft of climbing before u can grab the other end and if I decide to be lead belayed u will run out of rope. .....im not saying simultaneous climbing is super safe. I have not seen the route they rapped off. This all depends on the situation and the terrain. Simultaneously climbing low grade terrain in this situation of stuck rope is what comes to mind first as the most efficient way of freeing the rope. Hey if u rap off a harder route with vertical drops and no features think ahead of setting shorter rappels or where u can go around the harder sections to free the rope. Going traverse is going to take more rope length so more reason to simultaneous climb.

BigJuggsjohnson wrote: OK let me say this: u got 20 ft and the other half is stuck and blown away way left where u can't see it. All u see is a loop of the rope 50 ft above u. U never solo rope lead before no gri gri. So u got 30 ft of climbing before u can grab the other end and if I decide to be lead belayed u will run out of rope. .....im not saying simultaneous climbing is super safe. I have not seen the route they rapped off. This all depends on the situation and the terrain. Simultaneously climbing low grade terrain in this situation of stuck rope is what comes to mind first as the most efficient way of freeing the rope. Hey if u rap off a harder route with vertical drops and no features think ahead of setting shorter rappels or where u can go around the harder sections to free the rope. Going traverse is going to take more rope length so more reason to simultaneous climb.

Priceless. PRRose & Kenan - you are trying to reason with Elana/Smelly/Elanor etc. etc. A hopeless cause.

Cos I do make a good point there! All I wanna do now is to go simultaneously climb a low grade trad route with tons of pro. Any ideas ( besides flat irons)???

OK the communication would go like this: we got 20 ft and I don't see the other end. Put me on belay till I clear the 20 then start simultaneous climbing. By then I see. The other rope 30 ft up. We proceed till I can grab it and prussic into it. I belay my partner to a ledge where he can ancor in. I prussic up the ropes to free them, reset the station if needed, we rap down. ....something like that...

BigJuggsjohnson wrote: OK let me say this: u got 20 ft and the other half is stuck and blown away way left where u can't see it. All u see is a loop of the rope 50 ft above u. U never solo rope lead before no gri gri. So u got 30 ft of climbing before u can grab the other end and if I decide to be lead belayed u will run out of rope. .....im not saying simultaneous climbing is super safe. I have not seen the route they rapped off. This all depends on the situation and the terrain. Simultaneously climbing low grade terrain in this situation of stuck rope is what comes to mind first as the most efficient way of freeing the rope. Hey if u rap off a harder route with vertical drops and no features think ahead of setting shorter rappels or where u can go around the harder sections to free the rope. Going traverse is going to take more rope length so more reason to simultaneous climb.

My head hurts.

flyk wrote: My head hurts.

Cos U gotto visualize it!

BigJuggsjohnson wrote: OK let me say this: u got 20 ft and the other half is stuck and blown away way left where u can't see it. All u see is a loop of the rope 50 ft above u. U never solo rope lead before no gri gri. So u got 30 ft of climbing before u can grab the other end and if I decide to be lead belayed u will run out of rope. .....im not saying simultaneous climbing is super safe. I have not seen the route they rapped off. This all depends on the situation and the terrain. Simultaneously climbing low grade terrain in this situation of stuck rope is what comes to mind first as the most efficient way of freeing the rope. Hey if u rap off a harder route with vertical drops and no features think ahead of setting shorter rappels or where u can go around the harder sections to free the rope. Going traverse is going to take more rope length so more reason to simultaneous climb.

If you can simul-climb in the dark safely, you probably know how to ascend a fixed rope safely (or should be able to figure it out).

Keep in mind that when simul-climbing, the better climber should be climbing second, which means that the leader may be the less qualifed to be placing pro and building anchors. Also, the rope is unanchored, so you you are relying on each and every piece to hold if the rope should become unstuck due to a fall.

Eric and Lucie wrote:Geez people, if everybody starts calling SAR every time they get a rope stuck, we're in for trouble. Just this weekend, we were on the Diamond and a team ended up finishing their route well after dark. They exited upper Kiener's to the summit. I am sure they were cold and all, and worried about descending the NF in the dark, but what did they do? Answer: they triggered a satellite rescue beacon..!!! Then immediately proceeded to descend the NF after all and spend the night back at their bivy near Chasm View! Next morning (we were camped at the Boulderfield) we ran into two climbing rangers frantically looking for the party in trouble that had triggered a beacon the night before... I sure hope this is not a trend (though I am afraid it is). In my world, when you go climbing, you take responsibility for your own actions and don't call for rescue until (1) you have exhausted every possible option to get out of your predicament, (2) someone's health or life is seriously at risk, and (3) calling a rescue is likely to make a difference to #2. Seriously, what could they have expected from triggering a search in the middle of the night at the summit of Long's? If their lives were in danger, the rescue party would simply have found bodies the next morning. If they were not in danger, then they could have waited for daylight and descended the normal way the next morning.

This makes me so angry. People talk about being a welcoming climbing community--well I don't want to welcome more people to climbing and encourage them. In fact I don't want more people to climb, we have enough idiots already. You will find climbing if it is right for you, we don't need to make it any more mainstream or safe for the masses.

PRRose wrote: If you can simul-climb in the dark safely, you probably know how to ascend a fixed rope safely (or should be able to figure it out). Keep in mind that when simul-climbing, the better climber should be climbing second, which means that the leader may be the less qualifed to be placing pro and building anchors. Also, the rope is unanchored, so you you are relying on each and every piece to hold if the rope should become unstuck due to a fall.

Yea I can do things in the dark comfortably with headlamp though but I got plenty of practice doing that so feel confident. My point is that my partner is a better climber but im light and I stitch routes so that's why I would go first . Hells yea im gonna ace bombers there and aide set pieces if I have to. I sit on my gear a lot either to rest or to just see how it holds a lot! Trad climbing is all about practice practice practice.

Well duh they went down the rope eating chimney! They were told it eats ropes and it ate it! :) cut the tat and walk off. Its tempting to rap when u want a quick decent buif u were told it eating ropes its best not to go down that road.

BigJuggsjohnson wrote: Yea I can do things in the dark comfortably with headlamp though but I got plenty of practice doing that so feel confident. My point is that my partner is a better climber but im light and I stitch routes so that's why I would go first . Hells yea im gonna ace bombers there and aide set pieces if I have to. I sit on my gear a lot either to rest or to just see how it holds a lot! Trad climbing is all about practice practice practice.

Your post does not convey that you understand the risks of simul-climbing.

Please, anyone, who is reading this thread: Do not pay attention to this person's advice.

PRRose wrote: Your post does not convey that you understand the risks of simul-climbing. Please, anyone, who is reading this thread: Do not pay attention to this person's advice.

Yes I understand it! The advice is legit! What do u have to say u would do in this situation. People take their own risks not just by reading what I say and doing it. This is food for thought. Placing trad gear is a skill everyone should be constantly practicing along with rope management and multipitch ascending.

Rose if you've been around the block a few times enlighten me with your wisdom. Or do u just go cragging all the time? That's how u lead 10d trad?

BigJuggsjohnson wrote: Yes I understand it! The advice is legit!

Please share with us how it is that you know the advice is legit. Have you ever done this in order to free a stuck rope? For that matter, have you ever employed any measures to deal with unexpected events that put your climbing party at risk?