Using pins (leaving them fixed) instead of bolts on free routes.

I'm glad some one appreciated it. Its cool to see this thread going some where, these things usually just degrade into mud slinging.

Yeah I like threads like this one. It's a keeper.

So far your fixed pin arguments are still lame. Unless you put the pin in you have no idea how good it is. I have lead a number of routes then returned and pulled the pins I climbed past. Good thing I didn't fall. I then replaced them with bolts. Some of those pins were good when they went in and others were crap but they were better the day they were driven than any time after that. The guy who put them in made a choice to climb past it based on how it went in. When I showed up and clipped them I spun the cylinder and pulled the trigger. I was counting my ability to stay on the rock and never test that pin.

Clipping a fixed pin has nothing to do with sharing an experience with the FAist. You didn't haul a hammer and "awkwardly" pound it it. All you did was clip fixed gear and hope it was as solid as the day it went in. It is a crap shoot. Fixed gear is fixed gear be it bolt or pin. So lets leave something that has a higher chance of being bomber in the future.

FLOW CHART: Oh, and as I said, I tweaked an ankle when a fixed pin pulled so I am a hard man. WOOHOO. That didn't make me feel any better as I hobbled around Tuolumne for a week.

Fixed gear should last as long as possible and I don't think I should have to carry a hammer on a route to be sure the pin is solid. And the BS argument that bolts can't be trusted is silly. Stainless bolts or glue ins are not affected by rust and freeze thaw cycles the way pins are.

Next time I post to this thread I will tell you how I really feel! Haha

ha, fuck that piton on Isaiah

Eric "nailed" the argument. For me, anyway. +1

I don't mind (or even kind of like having) pins in situations where either (1) there are several of them, or (2) if they pull there is good gear close enough below that the fall will be bigger but still probably safe. On a traditional route I feel this keeps me honest. These kinds of routes are all over Eldo, eg:

• NW Corner Bastille: 3 pins in a row at the crux. Chances that all 3 pull seem remote.
• Yellow Spur: about 6 pins in a row through the long crux section and a couple of good pieces can be placed as well.
• Wide Country P1: a pin protects the crux, if it blows there is a bolt about 5 feet below.
• West Buttress Bastille: a knifeblade protects the crux but there is another pin about 5 feet below that can be backed up.

Lots of other examples. I do hate routes where there is a single pin that can't be backed up, protecting a difficult move where the fall would be safe if the pin held but damaging if it failed. That's the kind of situation that's impossible to realistically evaluate the danger, and to me calls for pulling the pin if clean gear is available, and if not, then placing a bolt.

Also, pins on long, remote backcountry routes--even placed by modern first ascentionists--don't bother me as they can be far more practical to place for the leader than a bolt.

I guess the point of the flow chart was to point out that you should climb routs that suit you or stop being a whiny little bitch! It's not like there are a shortage of well protected climbs in the Forks.

I personally like the experience of climbing up to a 30 year old pin clipping it, pulling on it and maybe banging it in a bit more with my number 4 cam and deciding if I have what it takes to go for it that day. Evaluating objective hazard Vs. perceived hazard and seeing how I feel that day is one of the most rewording parts of trad climbing. One of the beauties of climbing is the variety routs and styles available.

I'm not saying bolts have no place, quiet the opposite, I love well protected sport climbing and mixed routs. What I am saying is respecting the ethic of an area or FA party is what provides that variety we all appreciate.

I think the problems come in to play when some one decides that they feel some way about some issue or style and everyone else needs to feel and want the same things too. This isn't about old, fat and backwards trad climbers who are afraid of new technology, it's about an entire generation of people who in general don't understand or care about the origins of things and take them for granted on a daily basis.
YMMV

David Sahalie wrote: I assume that you use a swami and hemp rope then? no? well you should be... those are the origins of things. If you clip pins using modern shoes and ropes then i think you are robbing yourself of the 'true' historical experience.

As you and Eric have both alluded, you CANNOT create the experience of the FA anew, so the argument that a piece of equipment (pins) that has for some reason been deemed more "trad" than another (bolts) validates the historical integrity of the leader's experience even when it is in fact the WRONG piece of equipment to equip a route that will receive lots of traffic is missing the point.

I too have clipped pins aplenty without qualm, but I think we are accepting their use for the wrong reasons and for the many reasons cited above their use in high traffic areas is a shortsighted affair. Their use in an area like the forks that is a home for those who advocate for clean climbing extends into ego-driven, cutesy, rule-bending hypocrisy in my mind. Pins are the way backwards.

David Sahalie wrote: I assume that you use a swami and hemp rope then? no? well you should be... those are the origins of things.

Goldline goes with swami, bowline goes with hemp. Maybe bowline on a coil if you're 'delicate'.

Anyone got pictures of the pins in question? I've seen some really bomber ones, and I've seen some really shitty ones. Placed about the same amount of both myself. Of course, the bad ones usually get replaced with bolts at some point after the FA (on my routes), or just removed altogether if they weren't really needed.

I've found that sometimes in less-than-ideal rock, placing a pin initially allows for better use of what might be a rotten or semi-rotten crack - quite often "cleaning" out what will later become a good clean placement. This is especially true with small to tiny gear like RP's or lowe balls.

Bolts are nice, but aren't always the answer.

My 2 cents

The fact that some of you are making such a big deal about pins ought to be enough to prove that their presence or lack there of changes the character of a route. Some people like the route the way it is, the way the FA team put it up, don't like it? Go put up some of you own FAs in the style you prefer.

And yes I do make it a point to go out a few time a year and climb in hiking boots with a swami belt, hip belay, all passive pro. I call them "old school days" my partners and I have always found it very enjoyable and its really helped me hone my passive pro skills. Although I am doing it with a modern nylon rope because that's all I have if any one has a gold line rope in usable condition I would love to take it off your hands!

Can you recreate the exact experience of the FA? Of course not just as you cant really recreate any experience in life! should we retro bolt the Bachar Yerian route because so many people want to climb it, but it wouldn't be safe for there experience level? Hell no! hopefully some day I will be strong enough and bold enough and even if I never am it gives me a reason to try harder every time I go out.

Are we talking about the Bachar Yerian, no but we are talking about maintaining a route in the style in witch it was established and I think as we have established a pin is very different from a bolt.

O'Gradey's Side-runnerless H9 6c/7a ** from Franco Cookson on Vimeo.

francocookson-climbing.blog…

Anyone that believes fixed pins are easy to inspect and trustworthy as fixed gear should watch this video and read the blog post regarding it. 2 fixed pins pull and lead to a 19m ground fall, which (unbelievably) causes only minor injuries.

Ouch! A 60 foot grounder ... that would mess with my lead head.

Mike J. wrote:Go put up some of you own FAs in the style you prefer.

I agree with a lot of what you have stated but the fact is that a a lot of Trad folks back East here (esp in CT) don't let folks put up FA's in 'their' style and from the sounds of the Forks one is not allowed to put up a route in 'their' style if it involves a bolt but if it's a pin well then your 'style' is fine.

Lots of heaviness here, over one dumb pin? What, alittle KB? or LA? just clip it and go, or no, as per the excellent flow chart above.

I don't mind, even enjoy pins for reasons as stated above: more natural than bolts, less visually obtrusive, it's how it was climbed. That said it would.be nice if someone occasionally checked with a hammer the integrity of pins, and sometimes replace them, or place a bolt if neccesary, the way other great public service rebolting efforts are conducted(thank you jim, eric, dave,scott,ben, geir, ed, steve, jeff, dave, and many others)

I wonder what a route like jaberwocky is like now, I assume with new pin scars?

MattB wrote:Lots of heaviness here, over one dumb pin? What, alittle KB? or LA? just clip it and go, or no, as per the excellent flow chart above. I don't mind, even enjoy pins for reasons as stated above: more natural than bolts, less visually obtrusive, it's how it was climbed. That said it would.be nice if someone occasionally checked with a hammer the integrity of pins, and sometimes replace them, or place a bolt if neccesary, the way other great public service rebolting efforts are conducted(thank you jim, eric, dave,scott,ben, geir, ed, steve, jeff, dave, and many others) I wonder what a route like jaberwocky is like now, I assume with new pin scars?

The pins on the first pitch were replaced with bolts, but not recently. I am not sure who replaced them.

I put two pins in the basalt of Paradise Forks. They went in well and I trust them. It is the local area ethic. I would rather put two bolts and and an anchor but that would be foolish. Instead, I will probably trust that the pins will hold me when I need them. Skip them on Ponza Roja if you don't trust them. Even better, rappel the route and check them before you lead it. It is only one pitch and as Eric pointed out, you are responsible for your own safety when climbing. Pins do pull out. Climber beware.

I have been climbing at the Forks for a long time. I have pushed a huge tree off the top of Paradise Lost. It was used as an anchor. Still, some people use their own logic to keep bolts at bay. Good or Bad, that's where its at.